Losing 6 cylinders after extremely hot weather and/or after a wash?? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Losing 6 cylinders after extremely hot weather and/or after a wash??

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by ferralc, May 7, 2018.

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  1. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Bottom left
    P41 burnt and P44 just a bit
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  2. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Fuse panel left side
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  3. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Up right perfect shape
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  4. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Bottom right
    P63 burnt
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  5. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Panel right side
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  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #31 Steve Magnusson, May 8, 2018
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
    P33 = AC Power
    P41 = LH Water Fan Power
    P44 = RH Water Fan Power
    P63 = 7-12 Fuel Pump Power (which is confusingly operated by the "RH fuel pump relay" as labeled at the fuse-relay panel because the 7-12 fuel pump is mounted on the RH side of the chassis)

    (P64 is the 1-6 Fuel Pump Power)

    These five terminals eventually get frazzled on virtually every TR. (My initial guess would be P63 is causing causing your loss of one bank symptom rather than ignition, but once it happens again, the logical thing to do is rule the ignition in or out with a timing light or spark tester).

    Using a spade terminal to replace the stock 2-prong terminal (like on your P33) can be a solution if the male tab on the PCBA is still in decent condition. If the male tab and/or PCBA is severely damaged that requires a more involved "fix".
     
  7. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    #32 ferralc, May 8, 2018
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
    Thanks Steve so basically I have
    LH water fan power and 7-12 fuel power in pretty bad shape


    And RH water fan power not as bad

    (AC must have been repaired at some point so that is why the direct spade terminal cable )

    Do you think extreme heat contributed to the power loss?
    What would you do? Monitor power and temperature (because of the water fans) to see if it happens again and if it does replace the panel?? (Does Dave sells new panels or he rebuilds yours?)


    I assume the white connectors need to be replaced too, what about relays and fuses??
    Thanks


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  8. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Sorry I just read the continuation of your reply
    This is a closeup of the P63 PCBA male tab, is that what is considered bad shape??? Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Maybe some, but a lot of it can be related to the plating/corrosion/tension/randomness of each terminal -- i.e., P63 and P64 carry very similar heavy electrical loads, and yours is a clear example of both not degrading at the same rate. When they start to go bad, they can be intermittent so wouldn't strongly relate it to any outside event

    If the male tabs and PCBA are still in good shape, going to a spade terminal on each would be OK IMO (might require some chewing on the plastic white connector). Dave Helms modifies an existing (which could be damaged or not) fuse-relay panel to bypass those connectors and moves the corresponding relays to a sub-panel. If you do an advanced search on "TR white connector" using my member name and read those 114 threads, you'll see that this isn't a new topic ;) -- and those threads should have pictures of Dave Helms' and other fixes people have made
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    No, that male tab still looks pretty good (and since it's still working that's a sign the PCBA isn't too horrible).
     
  11. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    #36 ferralc, May 8, 2018
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
    Ok so compiling all your wisdom in one post, the troubleshooting is:

    1 monitor the loss of power and temperature, and if it happens again

    2 rule out an ignition problem

    3 install a direct spade terminal for P63 bypassing the white connector (just like P33) and it happens again

    4 repair the PCBA

    Am I missing something??



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  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Generally, yes -- but: A) you need to do something for all five of those terminals regardless (and the oil radiator fan or AC condenser fan connectors are maybe a little bit less troublesome than those, and don't cause serious runability issues when they go bad, but they have also been reported as failing on some TR), and B) I'd replace #4 with "diagnose and fix whatever needs to be done" rather than just assuming that it's the PCBA.
     
  13. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Thanks Steve
    What would you suggest for those 5?And the other 2? oil radiator and ac condenser fans (which numbers are those by the way?)

    Replace the white connectors with new ones from ricambi? I know they will eventually fail again but those connectors are 30 years old so it won’t fail right away.

    Or bypass the connectors on those troublesome connectors with direct spades terminals like on P33??




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  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    New stock female terminals from Ricambi really doesn't solve the problem, and the male tab surfaces may be degraded where the 2-prong stock female terminal touches so may not work so well, or for very long, even with new female terminals (time to failure is related to time of use/mileage, not overall age). They won't fail right away, but I prefer having better reliability (and more trouble there will just degrade the male tab more). At a minimum, you need the direct spade modification like on your P33. My preferred "fix" is much more involved (bypassing those connections completely, but using the stock relays in their stock locations, unlike Helms' solution; however, you can't "buy" my fix) -- please see those 114 threads ;).

    P57 (light blue-white wire) is the oil fan power

    The AC condenser fan power is in the vertical c white connector (not shown in your pic)
     
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  15. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    just send your circuit board to dave helms. It's money well spent.
     
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  16. jgmblair

    jgmblair Formula Junior
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  17. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    when one bank goes out try to figure out if its fuel or electrical...

    One exhaust will be cold. Smell the exhaust, if the fuel pump works it will be exhausting unburnt fuel I would think. Also, take one of the spark plug leads off and check if its firing with a spare plug...

    When mine did this, it was a bad fuel pump...

    Good luck...
     
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  18. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Thank you very much I will check the other threads I promise I just want to ask you which one is the AC condenser fans on C? P17-P22??

    Also In other thread I saw a diagram you made with the white horizontal connectors, you noted P52 (techometric relay) as well.
    So I should add P52 to the list??

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  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    P19 -- should be a green-white (VB) wire

    No, only the high current circuits have the "burning" trouble -- the tachometric relay is a low current circuit (I added it to that diagram when discussing a different problem someone was having as a convenient place to make a diagnostic voltage measurement).
     
  20. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Thank you very much for all your help Steve.


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  21. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    After reviewing my own picture of the J connector I realized that P44 and P38 are already missing
    I can see there is a light blue cable connected to the relay that has R60 so RH water fan is already bypassed
    What about P38, what is it for??
    Thanks
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  22. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    P38 = goes to RR turn signal bulbs (light blue wire).

    P41 = is a purple-white wire sending a +12V signal from the tachometric relay terminal 87 that goes to terminal 15 of the protection relay to actuate the protection relay (this is not a high current signal and has not been reported as a "burner"). Have you had some crazy modification like having the protection relay removed and this wire running the KE injection system directly?

    P44 = is a red-green wire from the thermo-time switch. When the thermo-time switch is cold, the contacts inside are closed which grounds this wire and causes relay U to fire the cold start injectors during starter motor cranking (until cranking heats the thermo-time switch and causes the internal contacts to open and de-energize relay U). Again, this is a low current signal, and this terminal has not been reported as a "burner". Having a modification, or repair, here is also most unusual.
     
  23. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    #48 ferralc, May 8, 2018
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
    Steve I am talking about J connector (bottom left) Image Unavailable, Please Login
    According to your old diagram
    P44 RH water fan (already bypassed light blue cable)
    P41 LH water fan (needs to be bypassed, light blue black cable)
    P38???

    I will go to check the connectors again and be sure what connectors have already been bypassed



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  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    My bad -- I missed that there's an unlabeled position between P35 and P36 in the ferrariaustralia diagram so miscounted (and relieved because mods in those other positions would be bizarre ;)).

    P38 = unused (no wire) on a US version.
     
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  25. ferralc

    ferralc Formula 3
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    Ok so I double checked and both P44 and P41 have already been bypassed
    So both my water fans are safe.

    I checked Y connector and both fuel pumps P63 and P64 have not been bypassed
    Although only P63 is burnt badly and I am almost certain that is the reason I lost one bank (LH)
    I will bypass both just to be safe

    What is the best recommendation?
    Blade connectors just like my A/C or directly to the relay like my water fans??

    If it is blade connector, Is there any particular amperage or size of blade connector that I should use for the high current??
    Thanks



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