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Discussion in 'SF90 Stradale' started by Dan D'Agostino, Jun 7, 2019.
Read the F12 corrosion thread on dissimilar metals. Lots to learn there.
off to a mighty slow start, and if you mean hydrogen, it will never be prevalent as it takes more energy to harvest than it provides, not to mention it is very explosive, did I mention explosive? Wait, did I mention it was explosive? Of course, it is quite explosive. Even when using a slight amount of hydrogen, you guessed it, highly explosive. Actually can be very deadly in an explosion.
Hydrogen is too volatile and difficult to reliably contain for personal transport, it's a pipe dream that easily ends in disaster.
note, many clickable links above, each sentence actually.
Here is some recent news:
Most modern sealed, liquid-cooled battery packs are maintenance-free, but the same can’t be said of today’s fuel-cell vehicles.
The Honda Clarity Fuel Cell, for instance, requires the regular replacement of an ion exchange filter, plus replacement at specific maintenance intervals of its coolant, called fuel-cell insulating fluid. Special accommodations need to be made in safely working around the hydrogen stored on board.
from link above (safely working..)
check this out:
Conventionally, working with hydrogen requires a "hardened shop," in which work areas are fitted with hydrogen detectors, curtains around the area, and lighting fixtures that are explosion-proof.
Under the hydrogen-vehicle regulations, Honda can service its Clarity in a "non-hardened shop" if it follows the specific procedures below to ensure the car is in a "minimum-fueled state," meaning the bulk of the hydrogen has been removed from its tanks, stack, and plumbing.
To drain the tanks of their hydrogen if a car comes into the dealer with more than that amount of fuel requires a very specific process that takes place outside the service bays.
It's usually done in a designated area of the parking apron that's only accessible to service personnel, Reed said. It will be away from tall buildings, with minimum height and distance requirements that are specified by the state.
fuelcells based on hydrogen need a lot of work, the tanks are pressurized at 10,000 psi! if a means could be developed that did not require the hydrogen to be compressed and instead generated on demand, that might be good...just as long as the operating temperature stays below the boiling point of water (which changes based on elevation/atmospheric pressure) it could work
There are issues with all sorts of fuel/propulsion methods. Current battery cells are highly explosive and deadly for technicians, requiring all sorts of adjustments to workshops, for instance totally new ramps needing much deeper foundations than they have currently - I know this first hand because we have just built a new HQ and went through the process of installing a new workshop. You can view on YouTube plenty of clips about how shockingly explosive even small watch or phone batteries are. In a car you are sitting on top of many many times that power. LPG and CNG powered cars, which are all products my company has sold, are highly pressurised and very dangerous - get any amount of LPG on you when filling and it will give you a very painful burn.
These are problems that we are good at finding ways around (however unsatisfactory) in use. The key issues determining whether we end up using a particular fuel solution tend to be associated with the main purpose - petrol is cheap but gives CO2, diesel is also cheap and gives less CO2 but more particulates, electric motors and batteries are not so cheap and take a long time to refill and have too small a range in many circumstances plus the refill network needs huge investment, hydrogen fuel cells are too heavy to be packaged cost-efficiently with current technology and as mentioned, perhaps hydrogen is the most explosive of all the fuels (though batteries are exceptionally dangerous too). The perfect solution has not yet been developed. The perfect solution is very likely to be an ICE engine with zero CO2 emissions. Is it possible? We put a man on the moon 50 years ago so who knows?
But I’m not convinced that is the whole picture. The article below (hope its readable) was in yesterday’s paper and makes a very perceptive point in my view. If it is correct, it really means that the debate about CO2, environment etc. is not the whole picture and as such would mean that the future is really quite unclear.
This thread is about soul. If a 250 has soul because you can feel everything, and each one was handmade (meaning slightly different), then soul was lost decades ago - and I’ll wager that wasn't what the OP was thinking when he asked the question. Yet there must be more than 100,000 mentions of newer cars having soul over the years from members on this board. Every car is an inanimate object so it is therefore our interaction with these objects that confers and interprets soul. So long as Ferrari keep putting passion into how they design and build products, whatever the regulations have to say about it, there will be soul. Because we have a soul. And driving an electric/hydrogen/ICE/jet/rocket car, if it has been designed with passion and moves us on a weekend blast or road trip over the alps, then it will have soul of some sort. Because we will probably be smiling.
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What Enzo said is pretty clear, but specifically what he said does not imply that the the next supercar is better than the last one. He merely said that the best one hasn't been built yet. That is why it is such a smart marketing statement.
See "fugitive methane emissions" before crowning electric the default. Fanboys wouldn't care though, as long as some part of their charge came from renewables. It's the unintended consequences of brilliant government policy that is most fun to watch get played out. The more "clean natural gas" that is used to power the electrical grid, the more escaped methane and the more climate warming green house gasses are trapped. Rarely are all of the consequences spelled out, or even foreseen, as the flavor of the political winds blow.
Ultimately ‘soul’ is subjective. Otherwise every car review would have the ‘soul’ score. (94.3/100 points soul score.) It’s pointless to objectively say which car has soul and which does not.
What objectively can be measured is speed, handling, breaking, lap times, etc. Here I argue, Ferrari must remain at the forefront.
If you believe the new Ferrari cars have no soul. You’re right.
If you believe the new Ferrari cars have soul, guess what? You’re right.
Nothing personal taken. This is an open forum and I respect most of us are honest enthusiasts who compare and contrast opinions. And that’s FChat’s beauty.
I am not an expert, but I love to soak up knowledge like a sponge when provided by the people “who know”. When I bought my F50, my detailed knowledge of her was limited. My F40 was and is known to me, not her technical items but in her huge reputation, squillions of posters, countless TV tests.
But with the F50, the more I probed her incredible design, the more I became addicted to her history, and the more I understood the experience she delivers. Unlike almost anything else at her level, she’s “authentic”. Not some cosmetic design but a detailed and extremely difficult brief to engineer a road-going tribute to Formula 1.
When I met Ramaciotti, he asked me directly if heard my F50’s rear suspension “clunking around” (my expression). To be honest I wasn’t sure how to respond, what did he mean? Yes of course I heard the strange sounds but was it good or bad? I decided stick to the truth (not least he had a wry grin on his face when he posed the question). So I said yes.
He looked at me and with a sparkle in his eye he said in his rich Italian accent “ah, Formula 1”.
When we finished our brief meeting I walked away feeling a huge love for my car. Here was the great car designer Ramaciotti explaining to me that the experience I have with my amazing F50 was fully intentional! That he and his design team created a car that provided its ordinary owner/driver with a glimpse of how a Grand Prix car feels.
So, yes, diving ever deep into the F50 personality, and talking with people who created her, the more I have come to realise why Ferrari view this car as a critical part of their history.
And why a car like the F50 will never be built again. Not because it’s too rough, but because it’s too real.
I think it's impossible to come to a definitive agreement on this matter.
We are talking about inanimate objects, and therefore any sense of "sould" we sense, is based on our subjective feelings.
I think the 812 is one of the most fun, playful and encouraging cars I have experienced in years. I can sense the passion whith which this car was born. To me, that means an emotional connection thus I feel its soul.
Same with a 355, a 488 and many other cars. The original Cali leaves me cold, so does the Lusso. I don't connect so I don't sense a soul.
Does this mean Ferrari has lost its soul? No. It simply means that not every single product appeals to me. I'm very loyal and I definitely consider myself an enthusiast. But that's not the same as I think every Ferrari has been amazing. Fact is that not all Ferraris are perfect, and to me, to me feel like they were built without much passion.
I have never driven an Enzo, but the looks, the sound and the way it portrays itself, does absolutely nothing for me.
On the other hand, a 308GTS makes me smile from afar. It's beautiful and gives me the fizz. Same with the Daytona and the 330 GTC. The 400 series from the 80's are just a step in Ferrari history I try to overlook.
So how does my personal taste in cars relate to the soul? Simple. If it was all the same and they all conveyed the same feeling, it would mean no individuality and no personality. The fact that I don't like everything, means it's a passion driven endeavour. Different people set out to design and develop different cars. They are not generic and the production is therefore a living and breathing organism to me.
Some say the sould died with Enzo. Others say it died when Ferrari made their first road car. Some say it died when Luca implemented shields as an option.
Fact is that we as people give the inanimate objects in our life soul, so there really is no right or wrong. The day Ferrari starts building cars without passion, then maybe. But so far with the wonderful cars we have around us, I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can say that they were built without passion.
Passion is the soul and there's no doubt that the men and women responsible for such wonders as the Pista or 812 had passion and were fully absorbed in the work they did.
So no, the soul is not gone, far from it.
Some fear and dislike change as they prefer things like they used to be. But keeping things stagnant does not equate soul.
Very well put (although I do love the Lusso too!)
That’s a great story and put like that it’s hard to argue. (Not sure I’m fully on board with your last line though.)
The F50 is the only Ferrari halo car I will ever care about. I knew almost all of the things you mentioned. It is an F1 car from the best era in F1 that you can put plates on and drive.
You are immeasurably fortunate to be able to experience one.
The 70tth anniversary procession at Maranello was monumental, and I remember following you for a period in the F40!
Sometime this month I drove my 10,000th mile in the F50. In that time I have spent 8 hour days behind the wheel at some Ferrari-factory events, as well 400 mile days enjoying the mountain passes of the Alps. Neither the car nor my dental fillings have been shaken loose by having the V12 directly mounted on the tub. The vibrations are barely registered given the sensory overload elsewhere. The biggest "distraction" is the mechanical cacophony that erupts every time you gun for the 8500rpm redline, and that I have no trouble living with. Of the 3 Ferrari supercars I have the privilege of driving, the F50 represents a direct connection between man and machine like no other.
All I can suggest is that while the internet theorists concoct stories of impending structural disintegration from their armchairs, a good blast up a mountain pass should clear up any residual questions of how truly special the F50 is.
Actually the reality is different and more prosaic. By the late 90's, the F50's F130 engine family by then was over 10 years old (Tipo 036/7 from 1990 F1) and only used in its race cars & F50. Ferrari was developing an all new V12 to be the foundation of every 12-cylinder car starting with the Enzo, including series production cars. The latter cars would have conventional chassis structure. It was therefore optimal to use a lighter aluminium block construction and not a heavier load bearing engine construction such as that of the cast iron block F50 unit. Hence the subsequent supercars had a conventional aluminium sub-frame. The Enzo weighed approx 100kg more than the F50 partly because of the need for a separate sub-frame, but of course had more power.
There are other well-known, successful examples of stressed member engines - McLaren F1, Pagani Zonda etc.. And the newly announced Gordan Murray's T50 will feature the same construction. I doubt he would, in 2019, be using a discredited construction method.
Such a good point.
Thanks so much for the driving insight you shared. I've read it twice now and relished both readings.
Thank you, and extremely kind of you to say so, particularly when I don't post here that often!
Now that nonsense about the F50 @REALZEUS from has been cleared up, maybe we can get back to the original topic?
All this talk about the latest car being always being the best is off course in my opinion. Ferrari have historically used technology as a means to an end i.e. cars that deliver an amazing driving experience. That experience is not just the sum of the parts. It's something more. And this is what I think of the soul of a car. All subjective but real.
In the past Ferrari has built some rubbish cars as well as legends. They were not normally the first ones with new tech: e.g. mid-engine, fuel injection etc. Now the goalposts have shifted with much more focus on the numbers. Every car they have released in the past 10+ years has been very competent. But when I see comments for example about the Pista using words like "steely", "clinical" and "yet hugely capable", I wonder if these new cars are risk becoming just a sum of their parts because of this. Won't know until we drive it, but the SF90 seems to have that risk.
Ferrari is clearly following Porsche's playbook (Weissach pack anyone errr I mean Assetto Fiorano) so we will definitely see a lot of product that will kinda look the same as well as the SUV. This is also why I will always harbour a strong dislike for the sweater because his strategy will dilute the uniqueness of Ferrari over time. I have said this before and I will repeat it again, I strongly believe that LDM had at the right long term strategy. Sergio's strategy looks great now for the share price but in another 3-4 years when the market is completely saturated and the owners tapped out we will start to see Ferrari lose brand value and the share price lag the market.
Having said this, I think hybrids have the potential be extremely soulful once the batteries get lighter. I eagerly wait for the modern reincarnation of the 275GTB or 250GT with a 2.5-3.0 litre V12 that revs to 12000 assisted by a super lightweight battery pack to fill in the torque at the low end. This car will have soul and I live with the hope that this is where the Hybrid Ferrari V12 will land (and not in the history books) within the next 10-15 years.
I really like your idea of having a small displacement high-revving V12 (similar to Gordon Murray's T50 project) combined with a lightweight battery pack that fulfills the legal regulations and environmental requirements. Not sure if it is feasible or that Ferrari or anyone would be interested in such a project but if that is the future it would be a really interesting one. Could you imagine a Monza coupe with the V12 you described plus the electrics? You can make it sing out in the country and as soon as you reach an urban area turn it to a silent EV and not have to be antisocial, brilliant IMO.
Too much "nonsense". 30-day thread bans for each.
As someone who cares deeply for the environment and cars and having lived in Boston, New York and London that is the only type of car I now lust after. What is the point of a big shouty V12 or even a V8 in a city. The real fun is out in the open away from the crowded areas. I would happily drive the car in EV mode only within city limits all day and wait for the magical roar of a V12 when the open road presents itself on a nice long drive.
Exactly how I feel, I hope that is the future rather than a fully electric car.
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Very good point. I think ferrari has already started to lose it with the turbo engine due to the poor sound, lag vs na, perception vs competition.
I think you are correct they will make one full EV to try and show they can compete. But really ferrari should go back to making magical designs coupled with low weight and great sounding engines. Own the space nobody else can.
For me, "soul" = car that evokes emotion, which is created by sound, design, and performance. This SF90 promises performance, in spite of its battery-induced heft, but clearly will be absent sound and design (per my taste). Hence people questioning it's "soul.' (I agree)