losing the soul | Page 6 | FerrariChat

losing the soul

Discussion in 'SF90 Stradale' started by Dan D'Agostino, Jun 7, 2019.

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  1. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    The outlook for "higher energy density" in electric car batteries has a very long way to go, it may never reach the point of where a "light weight" battery exists that provides 200 miles of usable range in any driving conditions.

    Per this article:
    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

    excerpt:

    Specific energy. In terms of calorific value per weight, a battery generates only 1 percent of what fossil fuel produces. One kilogram (1.4 liter, 0.37 gallons) of gasoline yields roughly 12kWh of energy, whereas a 1kg battery delivers about 150Wh. However, the electric motor is 90 percent efficient while a modern ICE comes in at about 25 percent.

    To do the math, 90% of 150Wh = 135Wh versus 12kWh @ 25% = 3000Wh, yielding 22x more usable energy density for gasoline powered.

    As for the future, it is very unlikely new battery chemistries will yield such a leap in energy density (and therefore require less weight for same level of energy), it is more likely something along the lines of a hydrogen breakthrough (some background here) hopefully where hydrogen can be liberated "on demand" rather than stored in what amounts to "little bombs" onboard. Afterall, the energy density of H is something like 133x that of current battery chemstries, but, there are a rather large amount of problems with use of H for terrestrial transportation.

    But, here's something of a prognostication, once it becomes abundantly clear that CO2 is indeed plant food and makes no perceivable difference in climate, perhaps there will be a re-birth of liquid fueled vehicles, but, that may be 50 years hence once this all settles out.
     
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  2. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Has anyone identified replacement cost (parts and labor) for the SF90 battery package yet?

    Currently running upwards of $200k (parts and labor) for LaF battery replacement package.
     
  3. Roland1688

    Roland1688 Karting

    Nov 2, 2014
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    If the battery package replacement cost of SF90 is similar to that of LaFarrari, the resale value of SF90 would be negatively impacted.
     
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  4. SmokinV10

    SmokinV10 Karting

    Oct 19, 2017
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    If replacement is anywhere north of $20-30k Resale values will be decimated. No other Ferrari has critical components that are guaranteed to need replacement with those types of costs.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  5. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    #130 Eilig, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
    On March 1st, Ferrari effectively doubled the cost of many LaFerrari replacement components. For example, the complete KERS BATTERY, Part Number 312503, now prices at 128,896 € netto (153,387 € brutto), or about $173,000 just in parts. With labor, total replacement cost is north of $200,000.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Granted, SF90 battery will cost less, but could still easily be north of $30,000 parts/labor.
     
  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    LaFerrari battery 2.3kWh, SF90 7.9kWh, that's 3x the capacity, if the SF90 replacement battery is less than that of the LaF I'm sure there will be some very upset LaF owners...

    And, the SF90 range of ~15miles is based on the WLTP results, EPA results will probably bring it down to about ~14miles range.

    something funny, the SF90 electric motors are provided by Yasa and that company's CEO's name is Chris Harris, apparently not the Top Gear test driver, but what a coincidence :)
     
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  7. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    This is a good article quoting from the work of Argonne National Laboratory that I didn't think about that covers an issue that I was forgetting. Which is that the energy effiency of ICE and EV has to take into account the entire powertrain. According to their work, it converges in 2045. I found this to be an interesting read.

    https://www.thedrive.com/news/3539/energy-density-of-ev-and-gasoline-powertrains-will-converge
     
  8. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
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    What racing spirit? Ferrari haven’t won a wdc/wcc title since 2008...

     
  9. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Nice article, thanks, but in the 3 intervening years not much has happened to make this wish come true:

    How will we get there? According to the researchers, battery energy density will more than triple present levels as battery mass shrinks by 58 percent. So, as opposed to the battery composing 60 percent of the weight of an EV powertrain as it stands now, that percentage will drop to about 25 percent of the weight come 2045. Combined with the vehicle lightweighting coming to all cars, Argonne predicts most EVs will weigh less than their comparable ICE counterparts. The study’s present-day ICE vehicle weighs 1,830 pounds less than the heaviest EV. Come 2045 that gap is expected to close to just 65 pounds.

    According to the article I cited (Last updated 2019-04-18) current energy density is about 1% of gasoline (pound for pound), if this 2045 forecast is accurate they better come up with some truly amazing discoveries in how to achieve those results.

    This article from end of 2018 refers to a company making improvements in Li tech

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612614/a-long-awaited-battery-that-could-cut-ev-costs-may-finally-be-near/

    and the "biggest density" number quoted (which is only a prediction, their currently efforts are about 20% increase vis-a-vis Teslas) is about twice what is currently being used in Teslas, that's a good start, but a long way to go for parity with gasoline.
     
  10. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    #135 gzachary, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
    Sorry, I was actually suggesting that I found the article interesting as it discusses the entire energy that is available once you consider the powertrain and power delivery system of both power systems. I am not skilled enough to predict energy density for battery tech. Just wanted to add to your post so we can also think about powertrain's effect.

    As an example this:

    https://bioage.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01b7c8567021970b-popup

    The Argonne paper (which is behind a paywall so I didn't copy/paste the content goes into detail about the powertrain between the energy source and the wheel in that image I just linked to above. The links in the article point to the paper.

    So I was suggesting this as an informative read about delivering power to the wheel vs trying to prove that your post was incorrect about energy density of initial source of energy for each power system.
     
  11. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Thank you, that is what I understood the general idea to be as well but that article was also making a prediction that was, at the time of the article, nearly 30 years in the future and my take-away from that is

    a. energy density (ev with LI to gasoline) parity is very far away if ever

    b. Ferrari doesn't have that long, they will need a solution in the next 5 years and 10 at the most that provides the visceral excitement of an IC engine and the EU mandate pleasing tailpipe emissions (with 60mile+ range), chances are rather low for a light-weight battery solution in that time frame

    and, remember, hybrid drivetrains are the "worst" possible way forward because of the significant weight involved of the car "carrying within it" 2 drivetrains -- for instance, let us say EV battery tech was lightweight now (on parity with IC), the resulting car would still weigh more than an IC-only solution...
     
  12. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    #137 gzachary, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
    Yes I totally agree with you about Ferrari needing a solution. This has led me to keeping my current ICE F vehicles and now going back to used market to buy ICE Ferrari vehicles in addition to purchasing new F vehicles.

    I am really interested to see what Ferrari will produce. I do think they will rise to the occasion. In the meanwhile, I do think they will beat current EV.

    I live in Silicon valley and I am bombarded with the "Tesla will win and your cars away for good.". This is especially true when I show up for dinner or an event when everyone has their Tesla and I purposely bring my F car :)

    I have long term friends associated with Tesla who believe metrics make the car purely...that sound and sensation are just relics of old timers dreaming of Formula One when they were kids. I have heard the non stop. We have fiercely been on the opposing side of this argument since the company started.

    Part of their strategy is to build the brand in Ferrari's territory for their overall market wide domination of the main stream msrket, similar to a Volkswagen, Ford, Toyota, etc. My own opinion here, is that this is tertiary to driving their core mainstream business of Model 3 and Model S. Makes for good media and market cap too.

    In any case, I appreciate your leadership on the topics of the issue that involve the driving enjoyment, like this and the work you have done on GPF. Thank you.
     
  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Thank you for the kind words and other details.

    To that end, maybe another way forward for your Tesla caucus is one word "freedom", as in "freedom" to choose. It's not about who "will win", as in win what exactly?

    Obviously Tesla will never win the hearts of those who admire the dedication and exhilaration that Ferrari (and other for that matter) engines bring.

    Tesla will never win those who enjoy a car that provides nimble driving characteristics.

    Tesla will never win those who want to enjoy a track weekend with their car (i.e. one car, not bring a fleet of pre-charged Teslas you can use during the weekend).

    Each has its purpose, and isn't it great we have the freedom to choose what we like?

    You might ask yourself why is it so important for the Tesla caucus to "put you down"? Perhaps that is a reflection of their own insecurity in their choice of Tesla, otherwise, why make such a big deal about it and demean you and others?

    Afterall, some think the Tesla too much and choose a motorcycle or even a bicycle not to mention those who choose not to own a personal vehicle at all.

    Neither Tesla nor Ferrari "wins" everyone's choice do they?

    One thing I have noticed during interstate highway driving is when you are away from city centers the number of Teslas you see is generally zero, there's a reason for that, that's a purpose they are not well suited for....long range driving.

    Ask your Tesla friends if they would dare to drive their car to Las Vegas? It's just over 500 miles depending on exactly where you start in Silicon Valley...

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrymagid/2019/01/07/impressions-after-550-mile-road-trip-in-newly-introduced-mid-range-tesla-model-3/

    excerpt:

    Of course my drives were mostly on well beaten paths. I'm sure there are more challenging routes but I've played around with the route planner that comes up automatically when you use the car's navigation system to plan a route that exceeds the range for your current state of charge. I found I could get to just about any town I could think of, including some out of the way places. Tesla has a web-based route planner and there is also a third-party site called A Better Route Planner.

    point is, as "comfortable" as that writer makes his trip sound in a Tesla, in reality he was "working for the car" and if Teslas were all that and more, why is the long-range driver always needing to be concerned with the travel plan and in essence be "working" for the car, isn't technology supposed to free you from work instead of adding to it?
     
  14. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #139 Marcel Massini, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
    Teslas are pure lifestyle only, for young urban whatever, with big income as they are insanely expensive (at least in Switzerland where I live). Obviously smart marketing ("let's save the planet...." and all the other nonsense)…… Tesla owners live in the city only, they don't want to live outside, it's not fashionable.

    Marcel Massini
     
  15. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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  16. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Marcel Massini
     
  17. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Thank you JTSE30 and Marcel for what you write. This is exactly what I have I told my friend. He has a much different and broader agenda though.

    The issue is that he, specifically, out of all people on the face of this world, cannot publicly debate these arguments. I can debate him in public as we have been friends for almost 25 years. But he has a very broad agenda. His broader agenda is actually a human centric, broader agenda beyond the scope of our forum. I guess at this point you can guess who I am suggesting.

    He and I have a totally different view on what driving is about. His view is based on his broader agenda of helping people, instead of the enjoyment of driving. Specifically everything both of you wrote about. If you PM me, I can say a little more.

    Thanks for listening and providing support.

    GZ
     
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  18. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    more on Tesla track days:

    https://www.drivingline.com/articles/tesla-takeover-a-day-at-a-tesla-corsa-track-day/

    Option 1: RV Park Charging

    You can charge a Tesla from a NEMA 14-50 outlet, which is the same kind of outlet used at RV camp sites. Many racetracks with on-site camping have outlets for RVs. Plugging into a NEMA 14-50 outlet adds about 30 miles of range per hour. On a rear-wheel drive Model 3, you can go from 20 percent to 80 percent in about 2 to 3 hours.
    (provided they are not being used and you are cool with waiting hours)

    Option 2: Tesla Supercharging

    The most convenient option, as it is the fastest, would be Supercharging between sessions. There are nearly 1,400 Supercharging stations with over 11,000 Superchargers across the United States. Luckily, there is one station with 10 stalls just 15 minutes from Buttonwillow. This allows you to get a couple of laps in (literally?), drive to the charging station, grab something to eat, head back, do some more laps, then charge up and take a break before heading home.
    (notice time to sufficiently charge for next run session not indicated, I presume 15-30 minutes per car, so, better hope there are not too many cars needing to charge up...or that there are a large number of superchargers available)

    Here is a first hand account:

    https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/track-mode-a-day-with-hod-laguna-my-personal-observations%E2%80%A6.135578/

    car:
    2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range Performance Edition - Dual All-Wheel Drive + Performance Package

    Lap times for session #3 were
    • Outlap xx:xx.xx
    • Lap 1: 1:50.32
    • Lap 2: 1:53.89
    • Lap 3: 1:51.35
    • In Lap: 2:32.99 - slower pace for entire lap after brake overheat warning

    • <...>
    The summary is really really easy - there is _NOTHING_ wrong with this car’s dynamics, but it has no stamina. I was unwilling to complete a full 25 minute HOD session in C group (advanced point by passing) due to the following issues -
    1. After the brake warning comes up the 1st time, the braking becomes haphazard and for safety sake I started driving more cautiously
    2. After lap 3 or 4 laps the car is definitely down on power and becomes a muted version of itself - still fun but no longer super quick
    3. 5 laps at laguna is 30% or more battery consumption, even if issues 1 and 2 didn’t exist the consumption for a full 25 minute session is untested by me, but I just couldn’t do it knowing I had to manage enough battery for the rest of the day

    Reading the rest of the write-up on the link above yields the fact the Tesla is not a track car at all, and you spend entirely too much time trying to "manage" it.
     
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  19. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Oops, I meant to say that (out of respect), I can only debate him in private as we have been friends....
     
  20. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Come on, you are very intelligent individuals, no need to have blinders on for Tesla or any car for that matter.

    I’m on my second model S now, not one day in service, and use as a DD in Los Angeles. Brilliant tech, unmatched acceleration point to point, carpool hov access, etc. Not a better DD available IMO for these driving conditions. I do not consider the car a statement as noted above. Nor do the 12+ employees at my company who own them.

    That said, I loved my Ferraris and current Performante S. Very different needs they fill.

    Each their own opinion of course and I come here for the sharing, not the homogeneous beliefs but important to have well rounded perspective.

    Having grown up in BayArea, I admit there may be more statement Tesla driving there. Much like Prius a decade ago.

    Thank you for listening. Welcome thoughts.
     
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  21. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    #146 gzachary, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
    Thanks for your courteous reply. My wife uses her Model S as transportation for the kids, etc. This is her second one as she had an early version. The first version had a lot of mechanical issues. This second one has been plagued by an incredible amount of electrical issues. I think it is specific to the car that was delivered to her.

    Given that, I think it is a good car. But I don't consider it a replacement for the kind of sports cars or the track use that some of us discuss here. So I agree with you that they fulfill very different needs. I don't have any issues with Tesla in general. What I have had an issue with is the almost absolute opinions taken in the Bay Area on it. You are one of the few that I encounter that see both views.

    My friend at Tesla needs to propogate "the hard core smackdown" marketing tagline for lots of reasons. He also believes at his core that this is necessary for humans to survive. He doesn't have an issue privately 1-1 with great vehicles like Ferrari and Lamborghini. His all time favorite vehicle is the McLaren F1. He just wants to prove to everyone publicly that Tesla can easily outperform on metrics of sports vehicles. He also believes that algorthimically driven electric vehicles will eclipse ICE or hybrid vehicles by 2002.

    I also told him he was making a major error in offering zero customization for his new Roadster other than the few colors they will offer for the new segment he is going after. He totally disagrees with me. This is an indicator that he still views the Roadster as a high performance form of transportation driving instead of enjoyment driving.

    I will also make a somewhat controversial statement that is a bit stereotypical. In general, being a long term resident of the Bay Area and having been involved as a technologist for 40+ of my 50+ years of my life, silicon valley has become so monodimensional in its focus on function over form. Very few companies are truly focused on delighting humans. Apple was one of the few. People here tend to focus on metrics. Thus Tesla has a built in base here that love 0-60, etc. It is almost like the muscle car generation has become electric.

    One of the foremost and most well known executives at Google was a complete diehard of Tesla and a business partner of mine. I took several years of grief about owning a 458 from him given his love of his Model S. After I drove him in my 458, he finally got the difference and what I was saying. And he bought a 488 one month later. For fun.

    So I agree with you that they serve different needs. The issue I have is the almost fascist view in the Bay Area concerning the use of electric vehicles, their outgrowth from silicon valley, and the view that everything silicon valley is the best thing for the world. When I have discussed reducing my time in my work and spending more time at track etc, I hear comments like "this is like the Renaissance period and we are doing it here." It completely fits with both the lack of positive comments of when I drive my F cars or some of the negative comments I have received from some adults in SF about "you are the kind of person ruining the environment."

    So I hear you loud and clear. While LDM was still CEO, I tried to introduce my friend at Tesla when LDM was visiting the Bay Area to speak at Stanford. It was quite an amusing phenomena as neither would place the first phone call to each other even though they were both curious about what the other person was like...as a person.

    The "DNA" of Tesla will continue down this path of high performance "transportation" driving in the same way as the "DNA" of Ferrari has continued down the path of high performance "enjoyment" driving. It is a self-repeating culture of who you hire and then who they hire.
     
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  22. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    ^ This is why I come here, for brilliantly worded experiences that broaden my POV. Someone smart once said, “I dont have to agree with you to like you..” But sir, I agree and like you.

    PS - I had 3 458 Ferrari variants and I will certainly have another some day. And I concur, Tesla should offer customization on the Roadster as a key differentiator and means for broader adoption for those who want to personalize. Porsche was first to realize this, then Ferrari. Tesla is far too concerned with basic production principles to even begin to engage in these thoughts. Their survival is in question. Honestly hope they get acquired by a giant that can take what has been brilliantly done to date and elevate to higher standards.

    IMO, outside of the invention of the automobile itself, Tesla is the next best innovation to come to the form of transportation. But someone needs to take them to the next level.
     
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  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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  24. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This world is a bit bigger than just the "Silicon Valley", A LOT BIGGER.
    Your friend should use his corporate jet and fly to the other end of the world to find out more.
    Lifestyle, fashion and marketing is not enough.
    Nobody serious compares Tesla with Ferrari. Two entirely different philosophies.
    The President of the Swiss Tesla Club (can you believe that such a thing actually exists?? yes!) was my neighbor for 10 years. Very nice and charming man. We had endless discussions and he always tried to steer me "into the right direction". He didn't succeed.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  25. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    virtual signalling is
    To that end, I presume your friend is smart yet has been mislead.

    Perhaps you'll have time to share some educational viewpoints:

    Summary: In pursuit a bogeyman that does not exist, to whit, this planet & nature does what it wants to and we are powerless to do anything about it:

    (you may to copy and paste this link, when I click from fchat it goes to a gift store link)
    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/12/101217-mummified-forest-canada-science-environment/

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e5e/f03b3318a56a0b2844ccd0079bfe74719af0.pdf
    (from link above: This implies that over much of northern Eurasia summers may have been 2.5° to 7.0°C warmer than today during the period ;9000 to 4000 yr B.P. ..BP=before present time, that was not all that long ago was it?)

    https://phys.org/news/2016-04-volcanoes-trigger-crises-late-antiquity.html

    and I will leave you to contemplate this:

    https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/abrupt-climate-change/The Younger Dryas

    https://www.nasa.gov/planetarydefense/faq
     
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