While the engine is out I am trying to fix and adjust whatever is within reach, so took the fans out and would like to have some feedback. Let me say first I do not want to upgrade to modern Spal fans (or equivalent). I was first planing to replace the motors with some citroen CX gen.1 ones that were successfully used by a fellow member of our club, but upon inspection, I was quite positively surprised by the build quality of these motors so decided to refurbish them instead. Here the list of issue I've noticed: No fan shroud (De Tomaso Pantera had shrouds) Thin wires and weak connectors (do not look stock though) unusual brush (6mmx6mm, lateral pigtail) hard to source weak brush holder (uneven brush wear) Reverse motor with "zero" timing that ends up as negative timing Economical winding (there is some room for quite a few more strands of copper) As said, would really appreciate to have some feedback on how to get these back to their former glory.
Just updating my original post with my findings so far: BRUSHES: Brush maintenance looks troublesome: the brushes have an unusual lateral pigtail which makes these hard to source. Please note that the brush holder design seems to have been updated in the latest Lucas fans (see XKS unlimited parts listed below). The brush is different probably in order to cure alignment problems. Could be a nice upgrade but I am concerned that this design does slightly offset the brushes. if the commutator is fresh (or has been trued in a lathe) this should not be an issue, but if previous brushes have already made a "wear path", it is better to keep the same alignment. I also suspect that these new slotted brushes will be even more difficult to source in the future. Mine is the older design with "square" brushes. The major problem of the brush holder is that it is holding the brushes very loosely, which is acceptable as long as the brush blocks are new and long, but as the wear becomes more important, the shorter brushed are plagued by a huge "play" and instead of being straight one can see the brushes are seriously binding against the commutator. - Image Unavailable, Please Login - - - I had to buy bigger brushes (6.3mmx6.2mm instead of 6x6) to compensate for the loose tolerance. I originally thought I would have to slightly sand these brushes, but they are an exact fit! Your mileage may vary... Final results (also changed wires) - Image Unavailable, Please Login - Suitable Brushes Eurton Electric ref 33-6612 is an exact match "Heater Motor Brushes" (JCR supply ref SW126) are slightly bigger and can do the trick if the brush holders are loose XKs unlimited ref LU-54770693 do come with the complete "updated" mainboard. Other Parts: Lucas Bullet Connector
ADJUSTING TIMING FOR 30% LESS AMP DRAW: In my previous post, one can see positive brush shows more wear than negative brush, this is a clear sign that timing is not properly set. As these motors can be "reversed", they selected some zero timing. Positive timing with reverse voltage results in negative timing which is a big no-no, while zero timing is "average" be it in normal or reverse rotation. DC motors do usually benefit from a reasonable amount of positive timing. As there is no timing adjustment in the design of the end-bell one can play with the assembly of the motor can. Main housing and end-bell are "loosely" kept together with 2 screws, so it is possible to slightly rotate the end-bell in order to tilt the brushes a few degrees. Hard to explain in English, but a video is worth thousand words: - - Depending on how the endbell is tilted, the sound gets louder or more lively. Given that these are vintage motors, we will optimize the timing for the lowest power consumption The no-load amp draw is 1.57 with default timing, and can be as lo as 1.11 with the proper timing: that's a 30% more efficient setup (and one can hear that the motor revs slightly higher too). - -
I agree. I had no idea you could time an electric motor but it makes sense. On a side not why not just go with more modern fans?
These fans contribute to the look of the front grill and they are quite well made, so I decided to keep them and I am glad I did as tinkering them is quite "fun" actually. By contrast the fan I will replace is the GATE ASTI yellow fan. The alloy of the end-bell is craked beyond repair. These yellow fans were also made by Valeo and mounted in numerous Renault vans, so can be sourced, maybe a modern fan with straight fins would look better and allow for more airflow. Note that I did not come up with all these ideas, yet, packaging other people's ideas into a single article will hopefully help a few of us, so for the record: Suitable motors for Lucas cooling fan: 1) XKs unlimited ref LU-78497 Jaguar Fan Motor, same casing different colour 2) www.jagshop.co.uk ref LUCAS C34368, same casing correct colour Alternative fans: 1) Citroën AX Gen 1 : same diameter 8 blade fans, straight fins so looks more or less period correct. 2) 280mm fans for Volkswagen Golf Cab are reported to work, motor diameter is slightly bigger, but it can be persuaded to fit into the mounting. Numerous wattage options (60w to 250w). The fan itself is different, but the vintage look is acceptable. As these are two speed fan, ideally one should add the corresponding auxiliary fan switch. Sources: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/lucas-cooling-fan-motor-rebuild.531055/ https://www.coolcatcorp.com/V12Fan/V12Fans.html http://www.panteraplace.com/ http://wikilec.com/view/Cooling_Fans The AX fan tip was provided by a fellow f400club member
Hello, very interested to read of your Lucas Radiator Fan restoration. I am not a Ferrari owner, in my case it is a 1962 3.8 E-Type and a 1968 so called Ser 1.5 4.2 E-Type. The latter has the Series 2 twin radiator fan cooling system. On this car since purchase 32 years ago it has had one original square type Lucas motor and one later round style from a Series 3 V12 E-Type. I decided to fit another of the permanent magnet Series 3 round type and purchased two motors via on Ebay from France., one working and one for restoration. Comparing these two motors (which I have working well) I found that these 1972 year motors differ from the 1978 manufacture year already fitted in a number of ways. Firstly the earlier motors have a third commutator brush which is stepped at the end and does not have any electrical connection. I assumed some form of commutator cleaning or conditioning brush. Secondly the permanent magnets on the earlier motors are held by spring clips which are rivited to the case while on the 1978 motor they are glued on to the inner case. And finally the later motor had a fine washer (0.36mm thick) on the commutator end of the shaft while the 1972 motors did not though I cannot say if the previous owner had lost these washers or if they were never fitted. Unfortunately the brush springs were missing on both of the 1972 motors and I wonder do you have a source where I can obtain these. For the moment I have fitted temporary springs to get the motors working but am concerned about uneven brush wear. On the newer 1978 motor the brushes wereworn unevenly because of play in the brush holders but the brushes on the earlier motors were in good shape. So I am looking for a supplier for 4 brush springs. All motors properly aligned and running around 1.5 amps simply using line of sight down the fixing holes. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
The third brush is probably for 2 speed motors. The washers were normally manually selected in order to compensate for the play of the rotor and keep the brushes within a single "path". When the commutator has worn a bit, the brush should remain on the same path otherwise it may bounce. For the magnet retainer, these are actually used to keep the magnet while the glue that keeps them on the cage is curing. Some manufacturers even removed them once the magnets are secured, which allows for better cooling.
Thanks for your input. What I am hoping for is a source for brush springs. The springs on the 1978 motor are 14.40mm long, 5.40mm OD and 4.60mm ID all approximate given difficulty of measuring. It is difficult to assess thickness of coils and therefore strength on on line offerings. There is no trace of glue on the 1972 magnets or case and no rivet hole on the 1978 motor case. My assumption was a cheapening of the manufacture over time. There is no wire connection to the third "stepped" brush on the 1972 motors though I accept that this may only have been included on motors for that application though I had wondered if it could have been for commutator cleaning or conditioning and dropped to save money. As for the very thin washer this is between the end of the commutator and inner face of the front bush/bearing. The end float of course is set by adjustment of the nut/screw on the end of the case against the shaft end ball bearing. I thought that perhaps it might be to avoid wear on the faces of the bearing/commutator but have no idea. The washer may or may not have ever been fitted to the 1972 motors. It is possible that the previous owner simply lost them as he had lost the brush springs. For the moment I have temporarily fitted springs from ball point pens to get the motors running but these are a less than ideal diameter and I have noted your comment about uneven brush wear. As I mentioned and as you have commented brushes are subject to uneven wear as on my little used 1978 motor because of loose fitting in the holders. I very much appreciatted your comments. Surprisingly I was unable to find any advice on E-Type Jaguar forums. Sincerely, Mike C
As far as springs are concerned, if you do not have matched springs, it's better to use the firmer one on the positive side, as that's where you have more arcing (if memory serves me well). As a side note: fans from golf cab do have the same outside diameter and can be used as an alternative. These are 2 speed motors, so chances are one of your motors could be one of these?
You can gather a bit more information from your fellow Jaguar enthusiasts: https://www.coolcatcorp.com/V12Fan/V12Fans.html Looking at your picture again I would really suspect a low speed brush. You can see by the way that this brush was "sloted" so as to add a bit more of timing. In case you do not need the low speed, just remove the brush and the spring. You can also use the two speed setting, all you need is a two stage temp probe: https://www.urotuning.com/products/auxillary-fan-switch-low-temp-93-88-85-80c-mk2-and-some-mk3-321959481?variant=8385939210295 As for spare parts, my ebay supplier is no more, but you can try : http://www.carbonbrush.com/ As for the alternative Golf Fan, here is a link to a French website. You can grab the Hella references and buy locally. The 250w fan would provide a lot more cfm than the stock part. https://www.mister-auto.com/ventilateur-moteur/volkswagen/golf/golf-i-cabriolet-155-1-5-70ch-1979-1983/
Hello again and thanks for the input. Yes I have looked at the Coolcat site and actually have one of their fan/motor upgrades on my 3.8. Their advice on the V12 system motor/fan assembly is to use a VW motor and fan which is not my objective. Also checked XK's Unlimited (now Moss) but they do not appear to have stock of the brush assembly. am awaiting reply as to when they may have them again. I can get brushes as you specify from HC Cargo here in UK but springs remain a problem as sold in packs of 1000 by this source. I will try the links you suggest and also experiment with the third brush wired up. Appreciatte the guidance. Mike C
