Maintenance costs - fact or myth????? | FerrariChat

Maintenance costs - fact or myth?????

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Bob Zambelli, Apr 27, 2004.

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  1. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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    Nov 3, 2003
    3,497
    Manning, SC
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    Robert G. Zambelli
    I am a bit puzzled with the posts that I’ve been reading regarding maintenance costs that have either happened or are anticipated. I don’t know who is doing what to the cars but I can assure you all that some of these predicted maintenance costs are just not so.
    I would like to share information based on my experience with the two CARBURETED cars that I have owned for the longest period of time: 1967 330 GTC, and 1977 308 GT/4.
    Please allow me to preface this by saying that the following short essay is based on my personal experience from owning Ferraris since 1974. You may or may not have the same good fortune

    GT/4: Four years and approximately 36,000 miles. It had 20,000 miles when I bought it. First thing I did was changed all the fluids. Changed the vee and timing belts once at 35,000. Changed the plugs three or four times (ONLY NGK plugs). Changed the oil and filter every 3,000 – 4000 miles. Adjusted the clutch two or three times. Four or five sets of tires and brakes – this car was run hard on the track at every N/E region track event as long as I owned it. Rebuilt the carbs at 50,000 but it didn’t run any better!! Replaced the original exhaust system with an ANSA at around 45,000. UNBELIEVABLE difference. The car felt like it gained around 30 HP! Changed the outer bearing on the transmission input shaft. Other odds and ends like air & fuel filters. Dyed the interior and replaced the carpeting. Had it painted at 40,000. The factory paint was horrible. Never adjusted the valves – I checked them once and they were right on. When I sold it with 56,000, it still ran LIKE NEW and used about one quart of oil every 2,000 miles when driven hard.

    330 GTC: I won’t go into all the details but I bought the car with 40,000 miles in November, 1975.
    First thing – changed all the fluids. The engine was rebuilt (by ALGAR, as I recall) and a new clutch installed just before I acquired it. It now has around 160,000. I had three major problems. I had to rebuild the transaxle at 76,000, replace the differential at 155,000 and replace four valves at 156,000. A valve adjusting screw broke and four valves were damaged. Rebuilt the carbs once, adjusted the valves twice, replaced the alternator with a GM unit – I got tired of the poor performance of the original Lucas alternator. Replaced the coils with Bosch Blue coils, replaced the cooling fans with FIAT units. Adjusted the clutch a few times (I DID NOT replace the clutch). Replaced brakes and tires, of course. I replace the points and balance the carbs (if needed) about every 25 to 30,000 miles. I clean the plugs once a year only because the car uses quite a bit of oil. Keep in mind that it has spent LOTS of time on the track and was always driven hard. I also used it for many trips as well as daily transportation.
    I rebuilt the front suspension and replaced the rear springs just after I bought it. It is still perfect. All shocks are original. Rebuilt the fuel pump at the same time.
    I replaced the coolant hoses in 1975 when I bought the car. I just replaced them again in 2003! I got ALL the hoses at the local parts store. A few water pump seals too.
    Other than that, just routine maintenance – oil, filters, fluids etc. I even found FRAM air filters at the local parts store that fit perfectly.
    This may all sound like a lot but keep in mind that is over 28 years old and I’ve driven it around 120,000 miles. Also, it was just a “used car”, virtually all original except for the engine and clutch work.
    If you purchase a well-maintained carbureted car and drive it 2 to 5,000 miles per year, there is no reason for spending any more than a few hundred dollars on maintenance. If it’s been properly restored, better yet as many of the original parts that might fail (like valve adjusting screws!!) will have been replaced.
    Here are some of the products I use in the GTC – selected after lots of testing and comparison:
    Oil – only Kendall 20W/50 GT-1.
    Oil filters – Only Baldwin B-253
    Plugs – Only NGK BP5-ES (the slightly hotter plug is less prone to fouling)
    Transmission fluid – Valvoline 90W/140. YES, the car shifts perfectly even when cold.
    Brake fluid – Only Castrol LMA. NEVER silicon.
    Alternator belt – NAPA belts work just fine.
    Air conditioner belts – don’t know – never changed them!
    Anti-freeze – whatever’s on sale!
    Fuel – REGULAR, unleaded.
    Fuel additives – A can of Gumout carburetor cleaner two or three times a year. Dri-gas once a year.
    Oil additives - NEVER

    Here are a few hints for performing your own maintenance:

    Go out and buy a complete set of Craftsman 1/4 and 3/8 drive 6 point deep and shallow metric sockets, some standard and Phillips screwdrivers, a set of metric combination wrenches, a DVM and an advance timing light. Also, some good pliers, dykes, an oil filter wrench, two pickup tools, one magnetic and one mechanical and a good set of feeler gages. A “clicker” type torque wrench and a soft-faced copper hammer.

    Do your work slowly and methodically and NEVER force anything. If you encounter a problem, before you panic or give up, stop and think about it and read the various manuals that you should have already purchased for your model.

    Finally, if your car is running right, DON’T MESS WITH IT!!! No matter what you hear about carb tuning, timing adjustment, etc.

    Don’t worry about warming it up for a long period – half a minute if fast idle, in neutral with the clutch out, then drive it gently until the water and oil temperatures are up. Then, drive it - spirited, as they say – and you’ll really enjoy what a Ferrari was meant to do.

    If I may offer my opinion, the 330 GTC and the 2 headlight 330 2+2 are two of the all-around best if you’re looking for an older V-12

    Bob Z
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
    76,209
    Texas!
    Thx for the post Bob. You give us dreamers some hope...

    DrTax

     
  3. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 20, 2004
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    Clifford Gunboat

    A treasure trove of useful info for someone like me. THANK YOU!!!!
     
  4. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
    9,019
    Central NJ
    Bob Z,

    Thank You!

    Do you know if the Valvoline 90W/140 will work for the 330 2+2's five speed?

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  5. kdross

    kdross Formula Junior
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    Feb 10, 2002
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    Ken
    Bob:

    Thanks for the info. I was once told by an "old time" Ferrari mechanic that the older V12's needed a valve adjustment and re-torque of the heads at EVERY 5K miles or the engine would fail. Based on your experience, it appears this was more misinformation. Good to see someone driving their vintage Ferrari.

    Ken
     
  6. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    Hi, Art - I have used it in Ferrari transaxles, 330 and 365 5 speed transmissions AND rear axles, as well as in Dinos, 308s, FIATs and ALFAs - worked PERFECTLY in every one. Also in steering boxes. The only thing that I would be careful with is using it in the overdrive cars, like the GTE - I was told that the cone clutches require motor oil. I'm not certain however as I have not worked on any Ferrari overdrives.
    I'm pretty sure on the weight - there were a number of multi-vis gear oils available and 90W/140 comes to mind. You can also use the Kendall oil but they recommend a limited-slip additive.
    Bob Z
     
  7. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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    Hi, Ken. Your friend may have been referring to the older "inside plug" V-12s. These engines had three studs around each cylinder and when the electric fan clutch failed, which they often did, the engine would overheat, the head would warp and leak coolant into the combustion chamber.
    Also, the very old V-12s has finger followers instead of rollers, which did need more frequent adjustment.
    During the run of the 250 family, the "outside plug" configuration came into existence. By moving the plug to the outside of the head, there was now more room around the cylinder, allowing four studs, virtually eliminating failed gaskets.
    Interesting or what??!
    Bob Z
     
  8. kdross

    kdross Formula Junior
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    Ken
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Bob,


    Compared to many other vehicles the amount of maintenance your Ferraris have had is HUGE and costly.

    For example:

    I have owned 2 Mazda E type vans, one E2000 and one E1800. The E2000 had over 240,000 km's and the E1800 was over 260,000 km's. With both vehicles I changed the rubber cambelts and always serviced them (the E1800 usually every 10000 km's!). BUT all that meant was an oil change and a filter. Many times I would not even both changing the plugs. With the E1800 I did change the dizi cap, coil and leads just before I sold it as it was giving slight starting trouble ... and this solved it perfectly.

    I drive my cars very hard and these vans (especially the E2000 as it used to tow my race car ...) got hammered. Infact the E2000 used to sit on an indicated 150 km/h for many, many minutes (BTW that is over 5000 rpm in 5th gear) as I drove home from Uni which was a 600 km trip which I would do in 6 hours ... including a stop for petrol, etc.


    For the whole time I owned my E2000 van, I never replaced the points!. I had that van for atleast a couple of years and I actually bought points for it but never bothered to put them in :D ... I only replaced the points once in the E1800 because the previous set broke ... and we did over 60000 km's in that van.

    Thus it is NOT a myth that Ferraris take more maintenance than other cars at all. Those Mazda vans cost me almost nothing to run over the years and I have owned other older cars that only ever got services and tune ups ... never had engine rebuilds and gearbox work, etc. They were just cars and driven to work and back, etc.

    I admire the fact that you really use your Ferraris, but it is dangerous to dispell the fact that Ferraris cost money and take time to maintain, as NEW owners (who have been breed on Japanese reliability) will soon HATE their Ferraris if they do not get their feet firmly put on the ground about maintenance.

    I bet per mile a late 60's Datsun 240 Z (I think they were made starting in the late 60's ?) would be very hard to beat as a very cheap and practical classic car.

    Pete
     
  10. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Central NJ
    Pete,

    I think Bob Z's point is that the rumors surrounding Ferrari maintenance are much worse than reality, once the car has been set up. Compared to modern cars or other vintage makes, Ferrari's have higher maintenance requirements. Even so, these cars are as usable as any other vintage car.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Yes I agree with that sort of, but I think say a 308 takes as much maintenance as a normal car 20 years younger.

    New owners of vintage Ferraris need to understand, like any vintage car, that they DO take huge maintenance, ie. suspension regreasing ... you do not have to do that at all with a new car.

    In the end the servicing might be similar to other similar aged cars, but because of the increased complexity of a v12 Ferrari the costs are 3 or 4 times higher ... no point hiding that fact. Parts are sometimes reasonably priced, but if you wanted to replace the rockers, you have to buy 24 ... that adds up ... only 8 on a 4 cylinder!

    Pete
     
  12. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
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    Bethesda, MD
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    Tony Fuisz
    I think the message is these cars are actually pretty tough-Ferrari didn't make a name for itself by always breaking down. With the older cars, as long as you use them, they can be pretty reliable and solid. They need the same amount of attention as other older cars. They require regular, simple maintenance. When you open the hood, you can easily tell what everything does, reach everything, and work on things with a regular set of tools.. My Ferrari, after initial sorting, has been more reliable than my old TR3, AH 3000, Porsche 914, and 944T. Only my old volvo 1800 was as trouble-free with regular use. It always starts, runs great, sounds better and looks great too.
    In 40 years will a BMW 645 be as functional? I wouldn't bet on it.
     
  13. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Nov 20, 2003
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    Matt F
    Bob,

    Thank you very much for an accurate and articulate description on the true costs of running a Ferrari. Well done. These are the very reasons why I bought a 330 2+2.

    I think that a lot of the anxiety Ferrari owners (and potential owners) face has really developed over the past several years, in a large part because the newer cars are not nearly as easily serviced (or diagnosed) by their owners as earlier cars were. Ferrari dealers have cashed in on this anxiety, by charging huge amounts for preventative maintanence--like replacing cambelts at every inspection interval.

    It's very refreshing to hear a realistic and experienced perspective. Thanks again.

    --Matt
     

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