430 Manual conversion

Manettino on 430 and scud work and pass ny inspection no problem. California also not an issue as i have friends in cali with eag conversions

 

Hey Trev, glad you posted.
I sent you a PM and am waiting patiently for a response
Thanks

 

The 'kits' are just all the parts to change your car to basically how it would have operated had it been gated to begin with

Mine has been converted, I don't believe it has affected the manettino or e-Diff operation, they both work fine, if it has, that's news to me

 

Please take my previous post with a grain of sand Joe, I'd delete it if I could, not that it's wrong, it's just not thorough and I don't have the technical chops to comment.

 

Hello all, looks like the discussion has heated up at times As some already know, I'm the person behind Dr S https://gatedconversion.com/ in Florida.
So I will gladly answer questions regarding this conversion, PM me if needed.

I'm sorry that someone states he does not like my logo on my castings and would not purchase because of it. If you would like to purchase it otherwise, please specify "no logo" on the order and I will grind it off.

BTW, there is no supplier in Canada from what I know - I sold one of the early kits to Canada to Vantage007 and just because he posted some information about the conversion it gave people impression the kit is from Canada. There are only two kit suppliers globally now (please correct me if I'm wrong): EAG in Texas and Dr S in Florida. Plus we also get information in this thread about some parts made in China.

Regarding the turret/shifter tower discussion:

1) EAG was not successful in making a good casting as pictured earlier in this thread with a capture "who's tower is that?" and later switched to assembling the tower from multiple pieces.

2) Dr S kits include aluminum castings for: the turret/tower, clutch pedal and two aluminum cable hangers, all manufactured in Europe. Dr S is the only source of new cast aluminum towers in the world right now as Ferrari no longer makes them. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
Aluminum tower castings are actually difficult to make and it has taken a long time to get it done. Not only the casting, but more importantly proper multi axis CNC machining. As an example I've assembled two towers side by side and changed only one dimension from 0.10mm (0.0039") to 0.02mm (0.000787") and the shifter feel difference was substantial.

3) The tower in China is 3D printed.

Personally I like my solution the most but I may be biased So luckily there is now a choice in the marketplace and everyone can decide for themselves. Hope it helps.

Merry Christmas everyone!!

 

George,
I'm glad you chimed in. It's great that members have options. I just went to your site. The kits look really nice.
If I wanted the clutch pedal closer to the brake pedal can that be custom made for the customer?

 

Thank you for the kind words. How much closer do you want to move the clutch to the brake? The factory (and mine) clutch switch holder/spacer between the pedals is 15.00 mm wide. So a few mm could be achieved working with that. Or do you want a substantial move (tens of mm)?

 

Can you comment on electronic differences ..Ediff tcu etc between the two

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

@flash32

Summary: Same stuff regardless of the hardware conversion parts coming from any aftermarket solution (or a crashed gated Ferrari for that matter)

1) For the F430 I do the instrument cluster myself. Probably the same as anyone else doing it with SD2/3 or whatever. For the F430 engine ECU and e-diff choices are IDENTICAL for all the solutions on the market. It's Trevor and his affiliates installing Trevor's ECU tuned/modified software for people doing the conversion with mechanical parts from whatever source. Or a few other tuners installing original factory gated manual F430 software into the gated converted cars.

2) For the e-diff there are two choices I'm aware of for all of the conversions on the market (I'm not affiliated with either and I don't have a preference, it's the end customer choice)
2.1 Scud Ing Swiss e-diff bypass (can be purchased directly from their website and installed in a few minutes), and maybe others offer a similar bypass solution - anyone knows? This simplifies the car, removes hydraulic failure points and allows for F1 pump removal
2.2 Keeping the e-diff by plugging up gearbox holes in the F1 pump block (I think Robin was the first or one of the first who did it this way, I learnt it from Robin)

For the 360 I do all the electronics (ECUs and instrument cluster). I include it for free with the 360 kit.

 

Thanks !

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For the record, I wasn’t the first to plug up the f1 holes on the hydraulic manifold. Art had been doing it this way for a while. [emoji106]

I made up some wiring instructions for the ediff, but I was certainly helped by art who previously kindly shared his instructions with me. I spent hours pouring over factory wiring diagrams only for art to just hand over his well proven solution. For that I am very grateful. [emoji16]


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I've seen some of the wiring alterations with the EAG conversion related to the e-Diff. I am able to run the Scud Ing Swiss F1 pump relay monitoring just the e-Diff for me.

 

If there is one thing this thread proves is that if you are considering a conversion kit for your Ferrari you need to go into it realistic of your ability and with your “eyes wide open”.

I still think many (particularly non-technical or time poor people) whom really, really want to do this will be better off going to one of the well established, experienced fitters with a proven track record of success. Getting them to take away all the issues and getting an accurate overall picture of the true costs involved. You will save a tonne of headaches too. It is also worth understanding how many cars need a heck of a lot of other work doing before they even start a gated conversion. Do you for example have the experience to pick up on these issues? Don’t underestimate this point. Many cars at this age are basket cases.

Okay, so your car is pristine and ready. You will still need to do a lot of homework yourself if you are determined to do it DIY. If you are the kind of guy who is not afraid to pull the transmission and do your own belts you will be ok on the mechanical side but do not expect it to be cakewalk or done in one weekend. I think even many specialist Ferrari garages will struggle with some elements of this conversion if they have not done it before (and most have not), particularly the electronics side of things. I would not want to guess how much they will bill you to fit one either.

The one thing about these videos like Samcrac’s (whom is a good friend of mine by the way) is that it makes it look easier than it really is. Even on his car I am directly involved on his engine computers and electronics side of things. It is still a lot of man hours no matter who ultimately does the work. Many of these threads really do make out that it takes a couple of hours or something, it is not. In the real world it does not and there are many hours of hard graft ahead for anyone who decides to take it on. I’m sure it is very satisfying though if you do it yourself but just be prepared for what your signing up to do.

You are going to have to be pretty technically savvy and be methodical, be prepared to do some hard graft and research too, buy professional tools if you don’t have them already and be prepared to wait for bits or perhaps reach out to the community when you strip a nut or need to the correct torque settings for a set of bolts. All of this won’t be handed to you on a plate as if it was swapping tires. You need multi-disciplinary skills including electronics skills and perhaps even CAN bus sniffing skills if things go really wrong like you damage a critical wire accidentally. This is not a perfect well trodden DIY path and different kits are quite different in both approach and how long they have been available. Everything from whom manufactured the bits to if they will be still available [if one fails in the future] needs careful consideration. For example what happens if you need new shift cables and they are a different fitment on your chosen kit or NLA? Be particularly attentive to this last point if you are buying bits or assembling parts from multiple sources.

Furthermore many of these newer projects have very little real world testing (yet), not all the kinks are ironed out. If the software is included free do not assume it going to be 100% guaranteed to work. It is not. This is one of my specialist areas so I know much more about this than majority of posters. It has a very good chance of going wrong if the approach is to simply cross flashing just any old firmware from the same MY (or worse one firmware cut and pasted). It is not something I would recommend doing whatsoever without full knowledge and history of all the detailed differences across assembly numbers and geographical differences. Just do not do it, pm me for a technically proven solution. Why? On many of the Ferrari’s now I have spent many hundreds of hours on this now and I have assembled probably the largest database in the world, my 360 one alone has over 106+ different software versions spanning over the 1999 to 2005 lifespan of the model series. In a nutshell simply slapping any old gated firmware from the same MY is absolutely not sufficient and can very easily cause impossible to resolve issues (some not so obvious) such as issues with sensors, phantom CEL’s and non functioning switches and even issues with readiness and so forth. It’s a minefield if you don’t understand all the nuisance and the vast majority just do not.

If after reading all this you are still hell bent on self-installing (congratulations you’ve passed the determination test) absolutely do not make the mistake of just assuming that everything will be perfect OEM level and won’t require adjustments or modifications. DO expect teething problems, grazed knuckles, much swearing, problems calibrating the shifting, lots of stress and many technical issues and time delays and keep your expectations realistic about how long you will have your car off the road. I would recommend it being a winter project.

Do have a workshop manual ready if you are doing DIY and ensure your follow all the correct torque settings when you dismantle all these parts. It will at the least help you appreciate all the hidden complexity going on behind the scenes to make all of these projects happen. Only time will tell if all of this conversion activity will skew the gated market prices downwards in the longer term. For now demand still outstrips supply. Whichever way you look at it, it certainly looks on the face of it like positive news for those who always fancied a gated car but felt the prices of factory cars had made it impossible to justify the indulgence of a gated shift. Also don’t forget too that if your considering refining your ‘heel and toe’ skills that this isn’t going to happen on the stock Modena firmware (but again I can help with this as the factory software inhibits the ability to do this as a ‘safety’).

In my mind all this activity will no doubt push more availability into the market, particularly good news for the F430 cars for which there where very few to begin with. Not every maker will survive just like not every gated kit is ‘equal’ or has had the same level attention to detail, testing/verification and refinement. Software is of particular importance here because not everyone is doing this the correct way. I’ve mentioned this before but simply put using the wrong firmware for your car and it can lead to quite unbelievably bad longer term support issues.

 

I really hope, that these kits can evolve to a perfect "plug and play" product and I also hope, that companies in Europe will also start offering them, so I can finally get a F430 manual for a normal price.

 

Mine is in Europe and has the EAG kit. Plug and play. No hassle.

 

DrS www.GatedConversion.com kits are shipping with major components pre-assembled for Plug and Play and at $13,000 hopefully the price can be considered "normal"

 

That’s a good price point imho.

a diy can do this under $15k??

 

Yes. At least in the low tax countries like USA. Most European governments will happily add over 20% of VAT and duties to imports.

 

I wonder how many will DIY this when we take into consideration how many owners and buyers are picky about documentation. Most owners are afraid to drive their cars because of devaluation and let alone take on a project like this. I wouldn´t touch a DIY:ed conversion for sure. 360trev wrote a good summary on the complexity of the project. An experienced Ferrari specialist will in the best scenario charge you a minimum of 70-80 hours and that´s at least 10k more . Cheaper then EAG sure, but the difference is not huge when taken in account that EAG knows what they´re doing and don´t need any "learning hours".

 

Zed no disrespect but EAG may know what their doing now but at one time they did need " learning hours". Who the hell do you think taught them half of what they know. And yea alot of owners are afraid to drive their cars because of devaluation but they may also have 3 and 4 cars. The average guy has 1 and they wanna drive it. My opinion anyway. Trev wrote a good summary of the project but I think he was focused on the ECU programing part of it. Any diy guy can do the mechanics part. But the electronics part has to be sent out to the pros. 7 years ago, I knew nothing about a Ferrari, but I got guts and after studying diagrams I ripped out the left side engine harness and replaced it with a new oem harness for a factory manual shift car. Theres not a soul on this planet who told me what to do. While doing all the mechanics. I Sent out the ecus Mase engineering for reprogramming, cluster to FIA, got everything back and went on down the road 1200 miles to Pittsburgh. I'll point out that the 2nd time I converted Trev did my ecus because of problems and I'm forever grateful to him. So my point is any diy guy can install a clutch pedal, cables, master cyl and so on, send the electronics out and yippee, converted. And for the guys that have to pay, if someone wants to charge you 70 80 hours labor RUN like hell. It's a 40 hour or under job and I'd charge 5k if I were in the business. For a lot Less than that I'd walk someone thru the complete project over the phone. It's a project but not rocket science

 

There are many owners just like myself that can´t or don´t have the possibility to wrench. And even if i had it would be a peace of mind for me to have a professional do the job with documentation. It´s also a proof of quality for the next owner. I don´t think i´m the only one reasoning this way.

It took my shop 60 hours to do it. It was their first time and the tech is a world champion in wrenching and have also worked with several WRC rally teams. This shop has also worked with Ferraris since the 80s and have been very sincere with time estimations versus other shops and official workshops. But hey, this is my experience doing this in Europe and if someone can get a firm 40 hours estimation all in from their shop then congrats to them. Here in Europe one hour of labor is around $150-200.

That said, I don´t think the conversions are going to catch on in Europe. Mostly because of the prices (less difference between F1/OEM manual) and different mindset of the owners. It´s just too expensive and not worth it. This was also the analysis of the owner of the tech shop that did my conversion. He was offered to sell and install the kits from EAG but he just couldn´t see the market.

 

Well I no nothing about the market in Europe so don't know. All I know is some places really take advantage of Ferrari owners. I just don't see it at 70 or 80 hours to convert

 

It's kind of arrogant to say who is or isn't capable of working on a car when you aren't able to do it yourself. Same goes for saying what is or isn't quality work when you are unable to do said work. I had to fix a lot of terrible work done on my car from dealerships. Last person to change the timing tensioners installed them wrong. When I got in there one of the bolts was halfway out. I'm lucky the engine didn't blow, but hey, previous owner had those service records.

Sure, some owners want the records regardless, and while I don't agree on the importance of that after what I have seen, it is what it is. I don't think these kits are geared as much toward those owners. Paying a shop to do it is still possible as well for those who don't feel comfortable with taking it on.

As it always has been, if you want to buy a car with records, there are plenty to choose from. If the records don't mean much to you, there are also plenty of cars to choose from. This kit existing will not change that.

 

To each their own. I prefer a car that’s been maintained by professionals and I’m not alone in that respect. Also I’m far from alone not wanting to DIY:ing my Ferrari. To generalize all professional shops by your bad experience is a little far fetched.

 

I believe he's speaking about buying decisions that buyers may have in their mind. Buyers that are not skilled in working on their own cars will often rely on who did the work as a sort of judging factor. I don't think it's arrogant to recognize this in the market. It's why I chose EAG for my conversion, because I knew they had done at least 80 conversions prior to mine.

I was just thinking about this on another topic this morning. Because of the unreliability of my local energy company, I just signed a contract with a generator installation firm, the largest in the Southeast. I chose them because I assume they know how to install the generator. They've been in the business of installing generators and they have a good reputation, but there are some folks unhappy. The price they are charging is way over the cost of the generator and the wiring and so forth. However, what I'm really paying for and why they can charge so much is that there does come with it the peace of mind that they do thousands of these a year. Could I hire someone that works out of his pickup and he be as good as they are? Certainly, but I don't have the skills to evaluate their abilities. I'm paying for peace of mind essentially. Its not a perfect analogy, but I think that is what Zed82 means by it. I think that is a legitimate point of view he has. However, I'm a little more knowledgeable on Ferrari dealers than I am with generators and my local Ferrari dealer has not impressed me in the least. In fact, its the worst service center of any make or model car I have owned over 40 years. But, someone 1000 miles away looking to buy my car may have a great dealer and have the opposite experience. McDonald's is successful because a hamburger made in Atlanta will taste the same as the hamburger made in Seattle. There is a consistency there that consumers rely upon, good or bad.

I believe I am the only person in the world that has hosted Art and his crew in his own house and watched the entire conversion process in my own garage. I live streamed and posted the live stream here on FChat so everyone could watch it in real time. Those guys worked hard, not only doing the conversion but replacing other parts in the car that needed it. I believe I got to know them better than anyone during those times. They worked, I cooked breakfast, lunch and dinner and watched the entire process. I have no issue recommending them. Art has his faults, one of those being he's not very good at sales to be honest, but he is more of the engineering mind than he is of the sales mind. He can come off as being disinterested in people and that works against him in many ways. But in the end, this does not bother me. I have a son with autism. I'm used to it.