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Manual transmition in 812?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by Steve Brauns, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Steve Brauns

    Steve Brauns Rookie

    Sep 4, 2018
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    Full Name:
    Stephen Brauns
    I may have one Ferrari left for this life and if I'm so lucky, it will be a 812 paddles and all. I'm sure I'll be happy, even without a stick.
     
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  2. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    4,329
    Bournemouth, UK
    I doubt that, as they would have to develop, or at least adapt, a new gearbox, homologate it etc. That's tens of millions of Euros and hundred/thousands of workhours wasted, that could have gone to serious projects instead. There is a reason that Ferrari one-offs have the mechanicals of standard cars.

    Anyway, the 812 would be a much worse cars with a manual and would probably have to forego some of its trick electronics.
     
  3. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,289
    Well, they did a manual Challenge Stradale (yes, I know it was easier), so despite they state that they don't change the greasy stuff, they do at the right price.

    It wouldn't cost tens of millions, and they could subcontract the work, as they do with most SPs. The engineering of the F12 TRS was made by Pininfarina, even if it was not designed by them.
     
  4. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    4,329
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    The Challenge Stradale was based on the 360, so there was already a manual box for that car. The development of a new box would cost tens of millions for the 812 (Ferrari wouldn't just slap on a Tremec or something), not to mention the re-calibration of the electronics. If you ask for an one-off, the things you cannot change are the oily bits. Eric Clapton wanted a V12 in his SP-12, but since the cars was based on the 458, he got a V8!
     
  5. MAPS

    MAPS Rookie

    Jan 13, 2017
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    Marco Silva
    IIRC, on the Sultan of Brunei's thread, there are several mentions about the special projects and changes of gearboxes (mainly by Prodrive, if memory doens't fail). Maybe, if the philosophy hasn't changed, they would/could sub-contract the work, just like DeSoto mentioned above.
     
  6. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,289
    That's because Eric Clapton didn't pay enough! As you know, there is already a V12 458 around there. Yes, it was a test mule for LaFerrari, but it can be done so it can be sold.

    I think that they definitely should have to use an existing gearbox. The cost of building a SINGLE gearbox would be prohibitive even for the Sultan of Brunei. But I don't see why Ferrari could not buy an existing one. They did it for race cars and now they are already using Getrag stuff in the 812.
     
  7. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    4,329
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    Modifications by other companies, not Ferrari themselves.
     
  8. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    4,329
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    You said it yourself; a non-road legal mule. Totally unrelated to a roadworthy, series production car.
    They won't do it, people have asked. You can always go to an independent company, but then it won't be a real Ferrari anymore.
     
  9. MAPS

    MAPS Rookie

    Jan 13, 2017
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    Marco Silva
    Quite true
     
  10. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    Congratulations, it is an incredible car!

    Guys, I think if the factory changes the gear box, wouldn't that would require them to do a full series of crash tests for most markets?
     
  11. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,289
    There are tons of road legal cars with engine swaps. Ferrari asked to not drive the V12 458 for two years probably because of legal/warranty issues, but it could get a road homologation in the future, it´s just a matter of paperwork and money. Getting an European or worldwide homologation is not so easy, but single car mods are done everywhere.
     
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  12. tomc

    tomc F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Tom C
    As I recall, there is a pretty comprehensive thread on this @ Rennlist...T
     
  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,289
    The "Ferrari themselves" term is quite "elastic". Some Ferraris have been built by Pininfarina, Michelotto, Dallara or N-Technologyes. Many SP cars are assembled by a Modenese engineering firm, I can´t remember its name. In the end, as every manufacturer, it´s Ferrari who decides if a Ferrari is a "real Ferrari" or not.

    As far as I remember, the FX is considered a "real" Ferrari, despite its Prodrive gearbox. Being a Pininfarina design helped a lot to get the Prancing Horse on the hood, if it was made by a guy in a shed it would have been different.
     
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  14. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Feb 4, 2014
    2,309
    Maybe an over wishful OP question without much insight as well - but third gear would be killer! Best would be to just lower the gearing like they did on the TDF which gives it the biggest difference in perceived engine-related performance. The paddles still don't have enough engine braking to make it feel anywhere near a stick but they do up/down shift blindingly fast which is required in these cars especially with the rest of electronically controlled vehicle dynamics. The paddles are much more acceptable if you really rev and decelerate hard but these are street cars and no need to beat on them to make you feel like your in anything close to a real race car.
     
  15. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    4,329
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    Technically speaking, the paddles control a double clutch gearbox, which once engaged locks the clutch that is being used (i.e. there no slippage). Thus, they have nothing to do with engine braking. It would be exactly the same with a manual selector.
     
  16. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
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    Feb 4, 2014
    2,309
    Yes, double clutch with odd/even transmission gearing. But my point was if you drive a DCT it feels relatively uninspiring (like an automatic) unless you keep revs high and feel the effect of the gear you are in especially during deceleration where the engine braking is felt. This is a common complaint with DCTs. They do not feel like a straight manual shift.
     
  17. klinkman

    klinkman Karting

    Jan 29, 2018
    100
    NorCal/SV
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    EC
    Steve, appreciate you coming around.

    To be truthful, there are many of us here with deposits on 812s. The frustrating part is there are no definitive delivery dates, they just keep getting pushed out. Basically our collective reply is, "Thank you, sir! May I have another?" (Perhaps you recognize that Animal House reference . . . ?)

    So when there is this new voice who basically wants to (if I can use the word) bastardize this very very precious and coveted item, something some folks have literally been waiting more than a year for with no clear end point, well, it just sort of rankles the feathers I think that someone wants to already start cutting it up. Personally, it would be the same if someone got out their grinder and plugged it in to a fraying extension cord to make their own "chop top" out of a brand new $400k coupe. I don't want to watch.

    I would suggest going to your local dealer, writing a check for $10,000 and see what he says about delivery. It may give you a little different perspective about how coveted these cars are.

    On the other hand, I have enjoyed the hearing some actual solutions to your question, thanks for asking. My fav and recommendation is the blank check, that guy would probably do it as right as could be. cheers
     
  18. klinkman

    klinkman Karting

    Jan 29, 2018
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    @Solid State Not sure what car you're driving, but I have never had a car that did engine breaking as well as the 488 including multiple race cars. Now granted, I *never* drive around in "automatic" mode. But I can nearly come to a stop at an intersection by just downshifting. If I want, I don't touch the brakes until well under 10mph.

    These cars are really phenomenal, exactly the opposite of "uninspiring."
     
  19. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    Not a hard point to understand. Shifting in DCT up/down at high RPM in manual mode feels more "inspiring" than doing the flappy paddle at 3K or below where shifts are very smooth and technically "uninspiring". Car doesn't really matter but its an F12. The DCT smoothness versus the left pedal control debate is well documented even among different marks.
     
  20. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    4,329
    Bournemouth, UK
    What you are describing is all about engine management and characteristics. Lightweight flywheels, free flowing valvetrains, auto blips etc. This is the way that high revving engine operate. For example you can downshift from 3000 to 4000 RPM without fuss, the engine will just adapt instantly and maintain road speed, having 1000 more RPM. A lesser engine, which doesn't alter speed so quickly, would voice its displeasure, manifested with a judder. The difference is that a manual shift would just unsettle the dynamic balance, due to the longer time it takes. I hope that people don't confuse this trait for driver engagement...
     
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  21. klinkman

    klinkman Karting

    Jan 29, 2018
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    When you're talking about *engine braking* it is. Engine braking may or may not involve a gear change; one can easily lift off the throttle at any rpm without a gear change and feel the deceleration of engine braking.

    You're talking about the characteristics of shifting, which is a completely different subject. cheers
     
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  22. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    I'm also confused by those comments. I've found Ferraris tend to have outstanding engine braking, usually as a consequence of the very high compression they tend to employ. I think the criticism of DCTs is/ was/ they can be too smooth at times or too much like automatic. The manufacturers have managed to really improve the experience over the past few years, usually with software that causes the gear shift to feel more dramatic.
     
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  23. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
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    Feb 4, 2014
    2,309
    I referred to engine braking as my way to comment on the smoothness complaint of the DCT vs manual debate. Perhaps not the best way to describe it in that first comment as you all indicate. My follow-up comment much more to the point of describing the uninspiring action of DCT shifting at low RPM. It does feel like the video game many describe compared to a manual but to each their own. It also describes the undeniable Jeckle/Hyde personality of these cars at casual versus spirited driving. If you rev it during up shifting and then hit a good downshift you can better feel the "engine braking" which was my way of describing a more inspiring result. The 6% lower gearing of the last version also helps in that regard as well. I will concede I used the term improperly to describe something we all are aware of.
     
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  24. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    The 488/812 are way better in this regard. Also they change the experience along with Manettino setting.
     
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  25. ScottS

    ScottS Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2004
    542
    Winter Park
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    Scott S
    FWIW 599 manual at Boardwalk in Plano for 379k? No affiliation. But it would allow the op to have an experience right now without offending those waiting with his musings.

    I’ve heard the stories but one owner who sold his, swore it was an amazing ride.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

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