Maranellos are disappearing

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by intrepidcva11, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. YorkieV12

    YorkieV12 Karting

    May 23, 2014
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    It is comforting to know that you have bought the right car at the right price, but colour, specification, which side the steering wheel is on, etc etc is all surely subjective. I bought mine a few months ago here in the UK, partly based on price, but mainly on mileage, colour spec. inside and out, and not really bothered where the steering wheel is, as my 'enjoyment' motoring is on holiday in France, or especially Spain. Although at a used car dealership, they knew very little about the 575's, or indeed Ferraris. The car was exactly what I was looking for, and I guess some of you would be put off because the car was very reasonably priced....in fact too cheap ! It came with a short warranty for peace of mind, but in all honesty I have been far too busy since to drive it much. It is LHD F1, began life in Poland, went to Japan.....and back to the UK in 2016......so what ? OK by me, but for some out there, that would scare the daylights out of. I have my own workshop, so niggles can be sorted; but as time is precious, anything serious would go to a good Independent specialist. As yet, apart from the usual ''stickies', which I find annoying more than anything......no issues. Not used to F1 paddles, but that's one reason for purchase.....something new to me, something different.
    I do need to drive it more, just for the practice. It is a keeper, and I do get a lot of pleasure just by looking at it. Lovely black paintwork, black interior, drop dead gorgeous and on 19inch rims. (I thought these were the Barchetta rims, but on another thread I see they should be 18's. ?........thus maybe the aftermarket copies ? ) It matters not to me, as I'm the only one to please. With only 22k miles on the clock, and an asking price of 72,500 K sterling, I thought it was just too good to miss...and so far so good.
    An identical spec 575M that I was interested in, but which had twice the mileage, and more than 20K on the price, was considered, but with such a considerable saving to be made on my purchase, that gave me a BIG safety net for rectification of any faults.......and so far, none. There are some very nice cars out there, but I do wonder how many buy because that's what they expect to pay ?......as for the extra 200K for a Barchetta..? ?...if writing the cheque doesn't hurt, go for it.....but are they serious ? Maybe it's an 'age thing' as I still write cheques......still living in the past. !
     
  2. Dan575

    Dan575 Rookie

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    Taz, long time lurker, first time poster here. I just looked up the document you noted, I see its about 700 or so 575's in United States? Probably less bc I see 2005 includes superamericas. So possibly 600 or less? Wow that is incredibly rare, didn't think it was that rare. I too have a red/tan 575 were there any stats on the color combinations? I didn't know that the 575 was that rare in the states. The other poster mentioned crashes, do we have any clue how many are lost forever? We could be looking at 500 or so 575s in the US in that case. Very interesting and a very collectible car in that case!
     
  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    600 is a good WAG. No clue on how many have been crashed, but we do know none were stolen. The only color information Ferrari has published is in the same document at the end and includes all Ferraris. You would have to have all the build sheets to figure out combinations of colors. You cannot even get that info from Corvette, just how many of each color and option were built because the option combinations get into too many possibilities. Ferrari does not even publish that. Multiply just the number of paint options (plus out of range and paint to sample) times the number of leather colors times the number of carpet colors and you are already at a pretty high number. Multiply times the other options (stitching, etc), and you are getting to a ridiculous number. Then times two for wheels, times four for calipers, etc, etc.
     
  4. Dan575

    Dan575 Rookie

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    That's very interesting Taz, thank you for the reply. I've seen other numbers on this site of 7500 testarossas and 2500 or so 512s which would put the 575 in some rare company in terms of number produced. I may be biased as an owner but to me the 575 is the most gorgeous body in the modern Ferrari lineup. I didn't buy the 599 or F12 not bc of lack of funds but bc of lack of soul imo. There is just something about the 550/575 body that is stunning, maybe the hood scoop, maybe the side view evoking the 275, but whatever it is I believe the 550/575 cars have something timeless than the 599/F12 do not.

    I really never knew till I saw your PDF this morning that only 600 or so of these 575s were in the US. I personally have never run into another 575 while driving mine but now it makes more sense. Taz do you have any predictions on where these cars head in the future? 10-20-30 years out? I feel as we shift more towards electric cars as a society, beautiful 12 cylinder cars that were made in low quantities will be very high in demand.
     
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  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Dan- No predictions on future value. Mine is worth about what I paid for her in 2008, so that is good enough for me. Of course that is not counting $20K worth of ceramic brakes, $8K worth of factory CF, etc, etc. With over 5000 Maranellos built, and about 28-30% of those (and most Ferraris) coming to the States recently, they are not rare by Ferrari standards. By V8 Ferrari standards, maybe, but not in the big picture of V12s.
     
  6. Dan575

    Dan575 Rookie

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    Terry - I wouldn't lump the 550 and 575 under the umbrella of "maranellos" bc the 550 was almost produced in 2x the quantity at 3600 and it was a lesser car in terms of power and updates. The testarossa and 512 trade at different multiples as well. Again, Im a trader for a living, the number of 575s at 2064 is still quite low in terms of modern ferraris. You look at something like 246 and they made 2400 of those and they're still $300-400k. As for today's market it is amazing that a nice 575 with F1 is sometimes cheaper than a 308 or 328. That to me is way too cheap for the amount of car you get. I dont know the production numbers on 308 and 328 cars but they have to be in the 5000+ range. I think where 550/575 cars are today is where the 308/328 was 15 years ago in that $30-50k range before they went up ALOT.You have to remember that 5-18 year olds who would have been kids when the 575 came out in 2002 would now only be 20-33 years old and not really ready to pay big dollars for their dream car. Im in my mid 30s and I bought the 575 bc it was my dream car when I was in high school. Perhaps Im the minority as most of my friends who bought exotics bought huracans and 458s but Im a guy who likes classic.
     
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  8. Jürgen Geisler

    Jürgen Geisler Formula Junior
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    Dan, I think, Terry is quiet right with his description of generally 5.000 Maranellos. The produced quantity of each model is just one point to verify the value of a car. As we are talking about different interiors, some smaller exterior changes and Manual/F1 cars, there is imho no "lesser car", just personal preferences...

    Is a 206 GT a lesser car than a 246 GT, a Plexiglass Daytona a lesser car than an later one? Both samples shows, that the later car is not always the more preferred one even if they where further developed. Generally spoken, I guess, that's also the point, that you decided for a Maranello, not a later, even more capable V12 car......

    Most of us here are (....unfortunatly) a little bit older than you, so styling (style) and apperance are becoming more important as pure figures, and the end 90th Maranellos became for a lot of us the highlight of specific aera, a car with which we can identify each other.

    That's why Terry talked about Maranellos in general, everybody of us falled in love with just that model, in all the versions....
     
  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    They are basically the same Ferrari and all the 550s were 3 pedals, and I know all the differences between the two. The real production number for the 550 is 3083, not 3600, so nowhere near twice the production. Most of that is explained by the longer production run of the 550 and the fact it was the first in the run. Most of the late production numbers in Cavallino are incorrect, as are the first and last produced, etc, especially for the Maranellos. The 575M is no more special than the 550, with a few exceptions, so future values will be determined by factors we do not yet fully understand.
     
  10. Dan575

    Dan575 Rookie

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    #659 Dan575, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:10 PM
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 4:16 PM
    Absolutely, Im not disagreeing with you or taz. All im trying to say is that in my opinion cars dont really hit their full stride till the kids that grew up dreaming of said car are old enough to have a chance to buy it. Even if we start in 1997 with a 550 maranello you're talking about 20 years ago. So again 5-18 year olds at that time are 25-38 now, hardly in that 50-70 year old range of buying their dream car from childhood. Again, I was born in the 80s for me the countach and testarossa were my dream cars growing up and then the 355/550/575 when I was a teen. I drove a testarossa and it just wasn't a pleasurable experience at all. I also drove a nice 25th anniversary countach in white and it was even worse if that was possible. The 355 was a blast to drive but the car for sale I saw in Miami just had $27,000 worth of work and I was looking at the receipts in awe. So that turned me off. From everything I read on here and from discussing it with the dealer, the 575 was more what I was looking for in terms of not being a complete headache to own or drive. So I feel as more guys like myself come into the age where we start making the money required to buy these cars, their values will soar.

    The older fans today are still out there buying up their childhood dream cars from the 50s and 60s and 70s. When you look at guys my age, there really aren't alot of Ferraris that were made in quantities under 2500. What's out there like that?

    F512M
    512 BBI
    512 Testarossa
    575
    360 stradale

    Im sure im missing some stuff but for the most part, there were not THAT many limited run Ferraris for my generation. What made these older Ferraris so valuable was the fact that they were made in small quantities and there were so many rich people chasing after them. When you get to my age group I really dont see things like daytonas and 275 GTBs going for the values you see today. I could be wrong and we really have no precedent for it, but as a trader I would short that market if I could. Guys my age will be chasing down their childhood dream cars much the same way older guys are chasing down their childhood dreams. That's what Ferrari is all about in the end, fulfilling dreams and passion. Period. The 575 for me was on a poster in my room when I was teen, it was the first exotic I purchased. Im sure many other guys grew up like me dreaming of it and with 600 or so in the states, it cant stay at $100k forever. If my scenario holds true those cars above are the ones that will rise while the older ones decline in the long run, again all speculation, but hey speculating is my job and I love to do it.
     
  11. kishote

    kishote Rookie

    Dec 18, 2013
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    I️ agree to an extent that desirability will be impacted by the coming of age of those dreamers. For me a 512 B.B. is such an icon and such an end car. I️ also dream of ny fathers cars such as a 330/365 but no earlier. No interest in cars from the early 50/60s at all and many of my contemporaries (late 40s/50 year olds) I️ spend time with feel the same way.


    Should have bought that 550 five years ago and certainly the 575 6 speed my colleague in Nashville picked up.
     
  12. F456M

    F456M Formula 3
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    Agree on your statement that these are rare cars. When looking at web sites for Ferrari parts, it is a "huge" amount of crashed cars. I can't really understand how people manage to make these mistakes, but from my understanding, the rate of crashed cars must be a lot higher percentage wise than on normal cars. See here for example: https://www.eurospares.co.uk/cars-breaking-for-spares/ferrari Of course, a fast car can crash more easily, but a fast car also should be treated with alot more respect and driven accordingly. If we think about the fact that these cars build after the Testarossas were very practical and possible to use every day, some of the crash makes sence, as the cars have been very much driven and some have high milage, especially in Europe there are plenty of really high milage cars. My guess (out of the air) would be that probably 30+- % are gone. It is terrible to see all the cars broken for spares. Some flooded. Some just left outside abandoned etc... Anyone would say another percentage? :)


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  13. Dan575

    Dan575 Rookie

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    I feel much the same way, again we have ZERO precedent for this. No offense to guys who own testarossa's and the countach but as gorgeous as those two are, after driving them, I cant believe anybody would buy one for anything more than artwork bc the driving experience was just awful. Of all the cars I grew up idolizing only the 355 and 550/575 were realistic options as cars I could own and take out to dinner headache free. That's really incredible now that I think about it. The diablos were awful, my friend bought a 1997 diablo roadster and it was in the shop not kidding half the year and when it did work he said it was just horrible to drive. I dont know, maybe Im biased bc I have a 575, but after seeing the numbers in your spreadsheet of a mere 600 or so in the US, I really believe more than ever that these machines will ultimately be very very expensive collectors pieces.
     
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  15. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie
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    I want to be able to put two sets of golf clubs, clothing enough to last at least 5 days ranging from bathing wear to club dressy in the car and take off for some resort at the other end of a scenic and somewhat challenging drive.

    The Maranello fulfills that desire like no other.
     
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  16. F456M

    F456M Formula 3
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    Word! From experience, I can tell that you really can't get enough space. And when driving long you need space for everythkng, including some tools, washer fluid, charger, diverse wash/wax stuff, two bags for each person + two more bag for laundry, space for stuff you buy on the trip, some soft drinks, etc etc. My intention when I bought my 550 in 2013 was to keep it two years and then trade up for a Diablo or Murciélago. I still want one of those cars, but not as a replacement, more like an addition, simply because I need the generous space in the 550. In the narrow city streets of France and Italy, the 550 is quite big. A Lambo would be hopelessly low and unpractical. Still more bold and "fun", but not something I want more than a Maranello. The manual gear box is perfect for sundays. For everyday, the F1 system of my Maserati is quite nice as I son't have to shift myself (lazy me :). Not a bad value for that kind of money either! Now I don't need to put hige amount of kilometers on the 550 since I feel that is a very special car even if it not THAT rare. So in my opinion, the 550 is the most collectible. While the 575 is more modern and user friendly like the Maserati, and probably a better choise in the long run. Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  17. YorkieV12

    YorkieV12 Karting

    May 23, 2014
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    I agree 100% with ferrariDriver..........except that I don't play golf, and never will.
    Countach ? Forget it. The chances of arriving at your chosen destination are 10 to 1 against.......even if it's only the local shops.
    Diablo......a horrible drive, old fashioned, impractical, just as an XJ220.
    Murcielago......hell of a car, but everyone thinks you are either a footballer or a drug dealer. Thus, the stigma comes with the car. Luggage space in the front is OK for a toothbrush, if you saw the end off. My wife wouldn't survive half a day on holiday with the combined luggage space of all 3 of the above.
    No contest......a happy 575 camper.
     
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  18. F456M

    F456M Formula 3
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    Three years ago a drug dealer was caught and put in prison. They also took his mint condition orange Murciélago LP640 Roadster... auctioned it off for about 100k usd...


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  19. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    Well, here I go again:
    All 308s variants (= 2 valve carbed + 2 valve Injected + Quattrovalvoles) = approximatively 12149 cars (there is a doubt of + - 50 cars on the carbed GTBs)
    To which you have to add the small 2 litre atmospheric V8s restricted to the italian market = 300 cars
    And the "208 Turbos" only for Italy = 687 cars
    Grand total 308 family = 13136

    328s: 1344 GTBs and 6068 GTSs and ONE factory produced cabriolet = 7413
    To which you have to add the "Turbos" (with Intercooler, for Italy only) 1136 cars
    Grand Total 328 family = 8548

    Rgds
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    We have production numbers for all the Ferraris up to about 2005. 550 was 3083, as I posted above, not 3600, about the same as the 612 at 3025. Even at 2064 for the 575M, that is a lot by older Ferrari standards, considering the highest production from the 60s was 950 for the GTE. The 365 GTB/4, at 1284 + 122 is mostly from the 70s. V8 numbers hugely eclipse the V12 numbers from 1974 on, and Dinos outsold Daytonas 3:1 before the V8s.
     
  21. Dan575

    Dan575 Rookie

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    It is but it isn't. Look at corvettes from the 60s and the number produced and their values today. What about the mercedes SL's like the 190 I believe well over 100k of those or what about the 280SL from the 70s those are big money today. Yes we can say in terms of Ferrari 5000 may be alot, but do you know how much money is out there today? Believe me I work in asset management its enormous, the money supply has expanded greatly. Again just bc sticks were popular with people 20-30 years ago doesn't mean anything about their popularity in 20 years. We know millenials are not interested in lots of the same things as the generations before them. The F1 system is awesome as far as im concerned, Ferrari doesn't put a stick in its F1 car, so people saying its a big negative are crazy. 5000 total cars is nothing for the 550/575 in the scope of things bc classic mercedes and corvettes are made at 20x the quantity and still go at crazy valuations.

    Only time will tell, but for me when I see Ferrari of Palm Beach near me offering a 2003 red/tan 575 stick for $399k with 12,000 miles right now while I have a red/tan F1 with a couple thousand miles more that I recently bought for a tick over $100k, I have to question the overall market bc the valuation gap makes zero sense to me.
     
  22. Themaven

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    V12 production numbers:

    Testarossa: 7177 1984-92
    512 TR: 3280 1992-94
    F512M: 501 1995-96
    550 Maranello: 3083 1997-2001
    575M Maranello: 2064 2002-2005

    Notes:
    The 550 and 575 are both Maranellos.
    F512M is fabulous to drive. Though maybe not every day.

    Is the 575 better than the 550? My view:
    http://www.lux-mag.com/2017/05/04/best-modern-classic-ferrari/
     
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  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Dan- Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but for those of us who have ridden out several boom and bust cycles on cars, including Ferraris, there is no predicting what will happen on prices for regular production Ferraris.
     
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  24. Jürgen Geisler

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    Dan, it's quiet easy, a question of demand and supply, just that.

    As you mentioned, these high volume cars achieve high prices because the demand for them is high. Low volume cars have the advantage, that there are just a view available which not automatically means that they are more valid than high production vehicles. If they where produced in low numbers, there are mainly just two reason for that. Firstly, people haven't like them by then (sour lemons), most probably they don't like them by now (…some exceptions…).

    The second point is the pricing, some of them have been dream cars by than, cars you dreamed of - just not affordable. Some are now affordable for a broader public, but finally again today there is the above mentioned correlation between demand and supply. If the market accepts that the value of a stick car is three times higher than a F1 car, it means that there is actually more demand for them (…if you follow the previous years in the forum, it hasn't been always like that....., as for the pricing of the different Maranello's 550/575…)
     
  25. Qksilver

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    Exclusivity doesn't cause demand. It's correlated. Thought I'd post my thoughts here weigh in with a vote. A manual, non-digital gauged 550 will likely edge out an F1 575 re: demand as time marches on, despite all it's glaring inferiority to the 575 :). In the tapestry of automotive history, the classic touring berlinettas with clanking traditional (non-rev matching or intervening) gated shifters and front engined V12's are particularly significant, insofar as they're beautiful and perform well (and are allowed to be driven on public roads...).

    And for the record, I'm younger than Dan575 and agree with his sentiment that classics are far superior to the ephemeral, gratuitously over-styled, plastic modern computers - er, I mean cars. I especially like modern classics, which capture much of the experience without huge exposure or maintenance needs.

    I think Maranello's are STILL a best-kept secret. While other cars had been speculated in the last few years, Maranellos have mostly reindexed. Over time, as the paradigm-of-demand shifts, I think demand will slowly recalibrate to esoteric experiences that new cars, which are all converging to a degree, cannot deliver. In fact, I think that transition has begun in the last few years.

    -Joe
     
  26. F456M

    F456M Formula 3
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    It is a bit crazy to pay more for an old car than a newer more modern one, either younoike it or not...


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  27. strongx

    strongx Karting

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    I'm shocked, shocked! To see all this practicality invading the forum. Worrying about trunk space? Questioning why a 550 with the roof chopped off is worth so much more? First of all, for the Barchetta, the premium is less than the Speciale A commands over its roofed sibling. LaFerrari Aperta, 599 Aperta, it's all about rarity, just as it is with pretty much all Ferraris. It's just not right that an 'inferior' Dino is worth 2 or 3 Maranellos. Come to think of it, I may try this approach and see if an owner will sell me one for a reasonable price of, say, its original MSRP. If so, to allay suspicions that I was a flipper, I promise never to sell it for more than I paid for it.

    Anyway, thinking about whether the difference in prices is valid from a utilitarian viewpoint risks sliding down the slippery slope and next thing you know, you've bought a (much more practical) corvette! And not of us wants that.

    And why all the Diablo dissing? I have an opinion that isn't entirely invalid, since I drive one, and a 550, too, several times a month when it's not snowing. What's the Diablo like? It's FUN. So is the 550. They are different cars and the motors have different characteristics, but the L-car handles really well, solid and confidence inspiring on a high speed straight, and a blast in the turns. It has no muffler and sounds great (but not too loud, surprisingly). As for the 550, I've tried it at the track and that was a great experience; it slides nicely. Sadly that will probably not be repeated because I did it before prices when up so much and now I'm too damn scared.

    As far as maintenance, the Diablo doesn't need timing belt services. That's good, because getting in the engine compartment is not pretty. But from the records I have the costs have been minor (very relatively speaking) over it's 20K miles. The major one was replacing the starter motor, only $900 (plus $6,000 for taking the engine out and putting it back in). My 550, at under 10K miles, hasn't had any major expense, except for timing belts. But those alone add up to a bit more than the Diablo has cost. But let's face it, it's crazy and you can't justify owning these cars. At any moment you could have a repair bill for $5K, $10K or much more.

    Tonight I will pour some of my finest scotch and drink a toast to indefensible irrationality. Cheers!
     
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