Maranellos are disappearing

Daniel- The early model distinctions are most important when the 575M has the first shock ECU, 183960. This caused too little jounce and rebound control and left some early 575Ms feeling bouncy and floaty. By the time this 2003 build above was finished, Ferrari had changed the RHD shock ECU to 197211 or 201674, which worked fine. In late Summer 2003 (AN 51797), Ferrari eliminated the center muffler/resonator/cork and replaced it with straight pipes and new matching mufflers. The big change occurred at AN 52556 in late Fall 2003 when a steering positions sensor, matching shock ECUs, and 50 amp F1 pump relay were added. That steering position sensor provided much better lead-into-turn info to the shock ECU than just the accelerometers could, improving handling. Very late 575Ms had new shock mounts and shocks with half a set of HGTC shocks.

So they just got better as time went on, but even the early ones handle fine if you get rid of 183960. Many owners like the FHP steering ECU and many have updated their springs and rear anti-roll bar to FHP or HGTC parts. Those springs and anti-roll bar are very hard to find now since we quickly ate the supply.

 

Thanks for the clear explanation- I've just found another thread where you explain why the steering position sensor cannot be retrofitted to earlier cars (which was going to be my next question!)

 

I don't think late models came with different springs and anti roll bars? different ECU. I drove a number of 575s both when they were new for review and when I was buying one. It wasn't as simple as early/late for me..personally I ended up buying a later model with FHP but the ride is quite hard, and if you don't go flat out maybe a softer ride is better. I do like the changes to the steering that FHP and later models bring. I didn't like the steering of my 550 at all, no feel.

I know FHP models have the thickest anti roll bar, even thicker than HGTC, from Taz, but still there is roll compared to a more modern V12. Quite hard but also with some roll. Porpoising was something else and I haven't had that, but there is a bit of squat and dive even with FHP. It's the flaws that make it fun.

at this age, though, individual cars have such variation that you need to drive them to know how they drive. No two are the same!

Edit: Taz said it all above at the same time I wrote this, with proper detail! Ran out of battery so my post was a bit delayed.

 

Darius- Affirmative, same springs and anti-roll bar for all the non-FHP/HGTC 575Ms, although there were changes to shocks (very early and very late) and shock mounts (very late) along the line.

 

Honestly, I think a wider/stickier tire and coilovers go MUCH further than swapping sway bars (anti-roll), steering ECU and stiff springs. The 575 has a lot of lateral spring from the roll bar - honestly, one of the tightest I've seen - so it doesn't need bigger bar(s) unless you're tracking, have coilovers, have sticky tires and need better rotational characteristics.

There is a lot of weight on the front of this car and it really needs some body control and grip to build confidence not turn the steering wheel and pray. Steering ECU will not help that.

 

How much wider can you go with tyres on the standard 18 inch rims? Maybe I can get a size they supply in the UK in MPS4Ss and have a wider tyre, two wins in one. Wider on both axles? I wouldn't want to do anything that increased understeer, more front end grip turning in on tight corners would be good.

 

255 is generally the widest for a 8.5" wheel.

The rear wheels can be put on the front and will clear a 305/35R18 tire.

 

Nick- You never tried swapping any OEM parts. The thicker rear-anti-roll bar decreases understeer. The FHP steering ECU improves steering feel on any 550 or 575M, including yours. The early shock ECU originally fitted to your very early 02 was pretty much terrible. Most of us like to keep them kind of stock, although mine definitely stretches that definition.

 

Unsold and again removed from CC so the sale history doesn't remain.

It looks like the high bid was £63,000. Which considering its an unregistered import looks like a pretty decent bid to me.

Interesting this week asking prices on Autotrader/Pistonheads for 575's have started to finally drop out of the £70k's and into the high £60k's

The no history, incarcerated owner 575 is back again:-

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109036943333?radius=1501&postcode=tn86qj&model=575M&make=FERRARI&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&sort=relevance&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&page=1

The 4 time auction hero now asking £71,995 - getting closer to the auction bids all the time.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202104181508466?radius=1501&postcode=tn86qj&model=575M&make=FERRARI&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&sort=relevance&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&page=1

And the Cat C write off "Special edition" 550 is back asking £69,950.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/201910093136710?advertising-location=at_cars&radius=1501&postcode=tn86qj&model=550&make=FERRARI&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&sort=relevance&include-delivery-option=on&page=1

It's the same cars doing the rounds that have been for sale for some time, in some cases years.

 

Hoping for a new fool.

 

I popped the steering ECU off and drove without it. Unsure if it completely closed the cut off valve or greatly reduced the assist - some other cars with servotronic have enough steering assist in default mode that it can simply be removed - not the case with 575M. As expected, slow speeds sucked. But at speed the steering was quite firm (duh) and when running through sweepers at 50-110+mph the input and feedback was the same just with more resistance, which makes sense as it's just controlling the valve for the level of power assist, not a difference in ratio of the rack itself and at speed the power assist isn't intrusive. The steering ECU seems to be more for the 'feel' than the actual performance (which makes sense for Ferrari to have revised).

I'm currently running a 295 width r-compound tire (100 treadwear) on the front, so it required much more steering effort than a car running stock 255 width 200+ treadwear tire. If this is a weekend car on a standard front tire, it might be ok just removing the ecu all together. But if anyone is on the fence of adding the FHP ECU, it would be worth the 5 min to pop off the steering ecu, drive the car (at speed) and see if you are more interested in the a steering effort in between the two experiences.

---

While there was understeer, that was not the entire issue as it was more a complete lack of grip (I expected this level of grip from a 456/612 - not a 575). I had a problem with the response to steering input, i.e. turning the wheel and then waiting for the car to follow suit (waiting for the shocks to respond), but then it would run out of grip as the body roll and weight would easily overcome the tires' adhesion.

The design of the sway bars on the 575M (assume same for 550) has more tension than I've seen on any other road car (likely to compensate for soft springs/shocks). While adding a thicker rear bar would assist in rotating the car, it does not help with the initial turn in or overall front end grip, which is what I was looking for.

I get the want to use OEM parts. But the stock hardware has its limitations, exacerbated after 15-20 years of life, and unless it's a low mile or special car (probably shouldn't be changed from OE spec) it doesn't matter changing a replaceable component with aftermarket (OE components can always be kept in a box). Swapping out the different options of OE springs, rear sway bar, steering ECU and suspension ECU to antiquated shock technology are not going to match the performance of modern coilovers. Then there's that whole cost thing:

Ferrari:
FHP springs: $900
FHP rear bar: $2650
FHP steering ECU: $1000
FHP suspension ECU: $1750-2350

Aftermarket:
MSC coilovers (1 way): $2300
Suspension error light delete: $450

 

Nick- Pretty much all those parts are NLA now, except for OEM or reflashed steering ECUs, and there never was an FHP suspension ECU.

 

What exqctly is MSC coilovers? Why are they better and what will be the difference when driving the car? Slow and very fast!

Thanks!

 

You never know. Another forum member and I just received new sets of FHP springs. Will install soon and report back. Already have the steering and suspension ECUs on the car which were huge improvements. Now let’s find that rear bar!


Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat

 

Very interesting!

Reminded me of this thread I posted on 5 years ago...

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/steering-boost-comes-and-goes.500168/

I had test-driven a HGTC (actually a 2003 model that had been retrofitted with the full factory kit that was once available) and I found the steering so 'meaty', I wasn't sure if something was broken.

I later concluded that the Servotronic Converter/Transducer was likely faulty, but perhaps it was the steering ECU that provides the signal that was either faulty, or not present!

It wasn't undriveable, but it was really heavy and additional steering 'weight' or effort is certainly not the same as 'feel' - unless you like the feeling of putting additional effort in!

P.S. The car in question is still listed for sale. I would buy it in a heartbeat. OK, so it's too old to be a factory HGTC but it certainly is the real deal and only has a few 000 kms on those parts.

https://www.autoscout24.ch/fr/d/ferrari-575m-coupe-2003-occasion?vehid=3617811&accountid=61303&backurl=%2Fvoitures%2Fferrari--575m%3Fmake%3D25%26model%3D643%26page%3D2%26vehtyp%3D10&make=25&model=643&page=2&vehtyp=10

 

OEM HGTC 575Ms were fitted with the standard steering ECU, but the kits for early 575M non-FHP conversions were supplied with the FHP steering ECU for some reason. There were four separate HGTC upgrade kit types, one for early 575Ms without the Pirelli Corsa tires, one for early 575Ms with Pirelli Corsas, one for early 575Ms with FHP, and one for late (post AN 55769) 575Ms. Kits were available for manual and F1 575Ms and with or without exhaust. Costs for the kits varied from around 22,000-30,000 euros without installation.

 

Oof! Breathtaking asking price for a nearly 28K mile '03 575M, even if it is a manual. https://www.*******************/2003-ferrari-575m-maranello-c-560.htm
or
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=594747221&zip=68101&referrer=/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?zip=68101&city=Omaha&incremental=all&modelCodeList=575M&makeCodeList=FER&sortBy=relevance&location=%5Bobject+Object%5D&state=NE&searchByDma=false&firstRecord=0&marketExtension=include&relevanceConfig=default&searchRadius=0&isNewSearch=false&numRecords=25&searchByDma=false&firstRecord=0&modelCodeList=575M&makeCodeList=FER&searchRadius=0&makeCode1=FER&modelCode1=575M&clickType=listing
The silver 27K mile 575M manual sold on BaT recently for, what, $202K?

Edit: If either link fails to work, the car's at a certain indie dealer in ATL with the same name as King Arthur's famous magician.

 

Ooooof is right! If prices even close to that materialize then I better put down deposits for F1-6MT conversion kits! Wow!

 

MSC is a 1 way - single adjustment for compression & rebound of the dampers - coilover which is more than enough for 99% of street cars (KW recently discontinued their 2-way coilover for the 550/575 & Moton still has 2 & 3 way options). Plus they look really pretty when you open the box - cannot be seen once installed.

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Better: ride height adjustability independent of spring tension (lower/raise car without changing the ride characteristics); adjust dampers to suit your specific needs; reduced spring weight for better control; made in US and are rebuildable (with very reasonable rates); Swift springs.

Differences: I have my dampers set at 50/50 soft/firm

- slow aka normal driving: 99% of the time it feels stock.
-------- noticeable negatives: on big drops on the highway (looking at you I-5 North in Orange County) the rebound doesn't allow for as soft of an landing/impact as stock (~85mph) and going over speed bumps the rear is a bit more harsh than stock coming off the bump. Both of these could be rectified with a softer damper setting. Honestly, those characteristics are what you expect from a performance car.

- fast: no body roll in the turns or nose lift/dip with throttle/brake application (they really control the car's weight); you know what the front wheels are doing in turns; LOTS of lateral grip; no wheel hop in lower gears; does not get upset by irregularities in the surface. Basically, the 575 becomes very predictable in the corners and driver input gets much more precise results.

This video was recorded to get the sound of my exhaust, but it really shows how little the suspension squats on the hit for going full throttle:

 

Thanks alot for the clarification. I am not sure if this would be approved with annual inspections / typeapproval in Europe...?!

 

With prices of the very few manual 599s demonstrably rising fast, maybe manual 575s are also upticking. The delta between a manual and F1 599 is now, what, 500%?

 

ONLY my personal opinion....I prefer the looks and interior of the 550 vs the 575. The 575 is so excellently evolved compared the 550. If you don't mind the digital dash in the 575 then one asks.....what is the hassle and costs to make the evolutionary upgrades to a 550 so it is on par with a 575?

That math theoretically should "cap" the value of an aftermarket 575 F1-6MT conversion.

For the OEM 6MT 575's I guess those get capped somewhere below the SuperAmerica's?

One would think if you could find very well optioned 575's at a reasonable price there should be a market in the EAG or other conversions from F1-6MT Since its not an OEM conversion I don't think you would want/need an investment grade mileage car either.

The "valuation analyst" in me loves doing this "chose your own adventure/math. If I was wealthy and retired (and thus had the time) I'd start playing around hunting 575's and doing conversions. I'd be lying if I wasn't SUPER jealous of @dhalperin13 and his situation with two 575's, one in the conversion process.

 

Eric, for me there are so many variations of 575 (under the skin) that it’s hard to refer to a straight comparison between the two Maranellos.

My 2004 gated 575 with FHP is a considerably better car than my 1997 550 (no options).

I have written about this before myself, but the best comparison is in EVO magazine here:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.evo.co.uk/ferrari/599/14111/ferrari-599-gtb-vs-275-gtb-daytona-550-maranello-and-575m%3famp


And the pertinent paragraph (though the whole review is worth reading) , with which I agree, is:

But the real change is the sheer reach of the revised 5.7-litre engine, now producing 508bhp and nudging the top speed up to 202mph, and the added polish to the chassis. I’d have scarcely believed it, but the 575M Fiorano monsters the 550. There’s more steering feel, greater traction, even a better ultimate balance.

 

That is asking a lot of cash for a non-Queen.

 

1994 456GT manual won’t start.

fuel pumps replaced.

spark and fuel OK

four sensors replaced.

any ideas ??????

chris


Sydney