Market Prices 575 Manual vs 575 F1 (conversion costs) vs 550?

I agree with you 100% and would use fabricated parts in my own vehicles. Unfortunately there are those who would nitpick about modifications using after market parts. I know a guy who walked away from a deal when he ID’d after market mufflers.!


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For some things, aftermaket can mean questionable things or personal choice, but for the discussion of the Manual conversion, it seems like its more of a 'whats your other option' than aftermarket parts. I would even argue this isnt a general or generic aftermarket part, its a manufacture of NLA parts to a high specification of a specialty repair or enhancement

 

Ok. I’m with you on that. Now to find someone who can fulfill that high spec requirement. Bottom line: it’s getting harder, more expensive and longer timeline to get done.


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OK, that's a bit extreme. I suppose there are people out here who will not use Hill bearings, etc. To their own detriment, IMO.

 

So much ado about this little guy ;-)
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I consider myself somewhat of a purist as far as car mods are concerned. But would certainly consider and use well proven better than factory parts. I directed the Ferrari dealer who was doing the timing belts service on my car to use HE tensioners not the Ferrari specified parts.

Was it his first Ferrari? I believe buying one's first Ferrari tends to be more emotional/irrational/intense than buying one's first Porsche or first Corvette. I am a bit of a purist when it comes to car's originality Ferrari or otherwise. For example I would never change the stereo head unit no matter how bad it is because to me it is part of the original interior appearance. But, wouldn't hesitate to use improved aftermarket parts if they improve reliability and don't alter the car's appearance such as HE tenioners, Fabio's exhaust parts, etc.

 

I’ll add a slice of my perspective.

Replacing a known weakness with a superseded superior part is ok - HE tensioners are a great example. Moving on with technology for things like tires is barely even worth addressing because it’s a no-brainer, but a good example that most of us are aware of is addressing the original tires on a Carrera GT, which had basically become a safety and drivability requirement several years after the cars were delivered. Exhausts have succumbed to myriad regulations and are easily reversible (and we all cherish what Fabio has done for our Modern Classic V12s). All these things address nuanced weaknesses that enthusiasts resolved and the larger community accepted.

Having said that, nobody has ever said “Ferrari REALLY missed when they designed their manual transmissions.” In fact, for 50 years Ferrari had been known for the iconic clink and look of the gated shifter. The shifting experience has nearly defined the driving experience as much as the V12 tradition and partnership with Pininfarina had become synonymous with Ferrari road cars over the years. And these are literally the things that made Ferrari road cars legendary.

With regard to F1 cars, the fact that they are provisioned for manual setups from the factory and can be converted to those setups - with the parts that Ferrari built - as if the cars came that way from the factory, is an easy case to make in terms of hitting the bullseye for those who prefer manual AND having that ability to do it as designed by Ferrari, the ultimate purveyor of the gated experience.

We all know the concept that an 812 is a better car than a 250 GTO, but isn’t even in the same universe. It’s about the experience. To convert a car without OEM parts, regardless of the marketing of the experience, is altering the purity of what Ferrari designed and has been celebrated for. Somebody mentioned facsimile earlier, but that is an exact copy by definition. The reality is that Non-OEM is not facsimile and therefore changes the fundamental essence of the very thing we unanimously love and are trying to replicate. You can put an OEM gate on in the console, but underneath, the mechanical bits will alter the factory design that we have cherished for years and covet now more than ever. You can pull out the F1 parts and put in manual parts that physically fit. But you’re making a modification to the Ferrari design and experience (which has been established as “not a weakness”) and that is a fact.

Software is a modification technically, however it not only unlocks the code to make the conversion possible, but Trevor can use the OEM mapping - literal facsimile (not advised on 599s, however, factory cars should be updated with his patch).

All this to say… to me, using non-OEM is altering a lauded element. Using OEM embraces it. Of course the drawback is that OEM is already tough to find and will become more challenging, and many will only have the option to go aftermarket if they want to convert. But for me, the option is OEM (factory gated parts) or OEM (F1) for something like this. We’re not talking about tires.

 

Very thoughtful response.


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Ok. Well I know people that would change the radio to Bluetooth with backup camera, but would never consider installing after market mufflers. So, different strokes I guess.



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On the other hand, think about a 250 GTO. What’s it worth today? $50 million? $100million? I have no idea. But I’m guessing less than 50% of the parts, on those few super collector cars, are factory original parts.



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The famous one-off 250 Breadvan was just wiped against a wall at Goodwood. It will undoubtedly be rebuilt. And it will also still be valued in the tens of millions. The incident merely adds to the legend of the car and the replacement parts will go completely unconsidered.

 

The breadvan crashed at Le Mans Classic - it could not crash at both Le Mans and Goodwood and be repaired in between

 

Do you think down the road these conversions, when mesured amongst themselves will matter where the parts came from?

Taking the Factory built 6 Speeds out of the equasion, as those deserve the pedigree they were made with; will a documented EAG (or other vendor) conversion with all Ferrari parts have an edge or premium over a sourced conversion? Will it matter assuming the work done remains to the highest quality and a decade or more of proven reliability in the swaps? Will the build sheet matter?

Would the Daytona Spyder conversions be a fair comparison? I assume the reputation of the company who did the conversion would be more important than the individual parts used

 

Right you are. My bad. And yes, I think this repair is going to take at least the rest of this driving season.....probably significantly more.

 

Every detail matters. 100% original is a known commodity upon which valuations are standardized. Once modified it is no longer original even if said modification uses factory parts. That will eliminate certain segment of the high-paying collector buyer population who are not interested in "modified" cars so it will reduce demand. But it may maintain or even slightly increase valuation within the buyer population that isn't bothered by originality. Will the net effect increase or reduce demand? Probably reduce it in my view, which will cap potential valuation increase. Much higher valuation is hard to attain unless the car is original because they just don't make them anymore whereas supply of modified versions is relatively unlimited. As more cars are modified that reduces the available supply of original versions.

I would've thought the Daytona Spyder would be significantly discounted but obviously they are not. Perhaps because of the limited total Daytona population available makes the Spyders limited by extension? Dunno! But at least the relative valuation of original Daytonas should be appreciably higher than a spyder everything else being equal.

 

How many conversions do we realistically think will happen?

I would imagine the pool of people willing to buy a $90-130,000 car and then do an additional $30-60k worth of work is fairly small. Once you’re up that high, there are other options that become way more logical for many. Depending upon your price of entry, waiting for and buying an original gated car probably makes better sense. You have to be a pretty hard-core 575 enthusiast to consider that expense and trouble OR really steal your car.

…and of course there are those among us who, rightfully, love the F1 and wouldn’t have a manual if you gave it to them. Most younger people nowadays can’t even drive a manual.

 

Meanwhile…..it’s a hard rain a gonna fall.


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That wasn't my point. The purist will always stay away, and the factory originals will (should) always command more. Or at least be recognized for what they are...

From posts further above, it was said factory Ferrari parts for these conversions are NLA. This stuff is way above my present pay grade to dream about, but Im enjoying the discussion.

So the question becomes within the conversion crowd does it matter what parts are used, assuming the reputation of the builder is well known. Which would you want or would it be a problem if you couldn't have the option you wanted....

A conversion with Yellow Box NOS parts from Ferrari

Used, but original parts from off the road or wrecked cars

A well known high quality kit made by Hill(side) Engineering or some other F@bio Fiamm type vendor who can produce proper custom parts?

 

Weeeeell...we all know what kind of tax those little horsey boxes carry, and we also know that, as much as we love 'em, Ferrari do not always provide the most durable bits, so...

Really, the idiot purist in me would like number one, but I have zero problems with #3 and am in the early stages of going in that direction!

 

It'd be sound logic to expect the spread to be between Factory F1 and Factory gated. Within that spread, there will be a spectrum of desirability for various conversions.

Obviously I have my preferences and am biased because of that, but a true OEM conversion executed by a leading team of experts would tether closest to factory gated (whatever the distance between the two is), followed by a list of non-OEM businesses "approved" by the majority of the larger community, followed by grassroots garage projects.

The dialogue here is zooming in without expanding into (1) the broader, changing context of enthusiasm and (2) the marketplace. I'd encourage some to consider the following:

• With regard to number 1, the enthusiasts' overton window has shifted, and it is evolving. Today, recapturing the nostalgia of historical roots of great sports cars is becoming king. Singer has perfected that business, but as performance becomes asymptotic for street use and the threat of EV proliferation within our favorite manufacturers looms, enthusiasts are clamoring to jump into the cars that deliver performance with character and connect with the historical greatness that evokes our passion. It used to be the "old guard" who had a quaint penchant for simple machines as exotics grew in power, size, and ostentatious design. But there is a vast shift to that concept that may continue to be galvanized by the new offerings that miss the bullseye

• On number 2, new cars are expensive. Like, eye wateringly expensive. A new V12 Ferrari can approach $500K. New 911s are approaching $200K and Turbos are closer to $250K. An Audi RS6 costs $140K. A BMW M5 is $120k. The list goes on.

Combining the two, the modern classics may eventually become the sweet spot in terms of overall demand for non-mega purchases. Modern enough to drive hard and enjoy reliably, but within that overton window that represents the enthusiasts preferences. There are plenty of people who will have the $500K to spend for a new V12 but aren't inspired enough to buy one. The modern classic segment includes things like Maranellos - and for the guy who's not particularly blown away by pixelated screens and GPF, a $300-$400K 550 or factory MT 575 seems like a heck of a good idea. Enter F1 cars - one of the very few slices of the market that can be reconfigured to factory gated specs. You can see the funnel, and there will be attrition as you make your way down, but if the enthusiasts' preferences move in the direction hypothesized above, demand for these cars in general will go up over time. And in my opinion, an OEM conversion sitting on the floor at Miller Motorcars or Scuderia Monte Carlo will be the next-best-thing in a world of scarcity in terms of modern classic gated Ferrari and availability of parts to reconfigure F1 as such.

 

I love manuals, don't get me wrong but I think over time the F1 system will become more valued as:

1) it represents a unique interesting quirk/period correct experience that is very different then the modern DCTs
2) Younger generations are less and less able to drive traditional manual transmissions

When I got my 575 I was fully intent on converting it over until I started really appreciating how unique an experience it is vs other cars. Now I am not so certain....