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Market Prices 575 Manual vs 575 F1 (conversion costs) vs 550?

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Ferrar55whoa, Oct 2, 2020.

  1. Ferrar55whoa

    Ferrar55whoa Formula Junior
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    Lexington KY Audi Dealership.....1998 MY 550 notes......

    @bracketz I think had historically first mentioned the Coparts salvage situation which was really helpful for the overall group.

    @climbernyc and a few others had also dug around this car during their searches.

    That accident situation without carfax was a lesson for sure on how to not trust Carfax and others.

    That Audi dealer 550 with the "interesting" red interior with the massive crash damage but clean title has been covered in this thread I had started.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/oddball-550-1998-ser-110675.633983/

    For posterity and for people out looking/searching......some of the condensed the info is:
    +) Asking $104k (doesn't feel like it is really for sale) Several of us (months ago) had been talking behind the scenes on this car as well. I'd think a PPI with compression test would be money well spent for anyone looking at it.
    +) Serial # 110675 1998 550 VIN = ZFFZR49A8W0110675
    +) Grigio Titanio over red
    +) 12,009 miles and what looked like ancient tires
    +) Daytonas, lots of quilted leather; alcantara instrument binnacle; carbon shift nob and door pieces
    +) Salesman never answered me or returned my call after talking with him about maintenance records or HOW MANY FOBS
    +) Dedication plate "A.I.C.F"
    +) Dealer owner was allegedly a "racer" and who knows if this car has been used or simply parked for ages.
    +) Dealer link: https://www.audioflexington.com/used/Ferrari/1998-Ferrari-F550+Maranello-Lexington+KY+-058398690a0e0ae77514c14f35f7ec6e.htm

    If anyone takes this car down or learns more via PPI that would be extremely educational -- thx -- Eric
     
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  3. bracketz

    bracketz Rookie
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  4. Ferrar55whoa

    Ferrar55whoa Formula Junior
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    i guess the high bidder didn’t close/walked.
    This car is back up for sale?
    https://www.ebay.com/i/233905199190?ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F0%252Fe11011.m43.l3160%252F7%253Feuid%253D8b03b4525d964f6689adf549a429835d%2526bu%253D45310537418%2526segname%253D11011%2526crd%253D20210222052817%2526osub%253D-1%257E1%2526ch%253Dosgood%2526loc%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fi%25252F233905199190%2526exe%253D97918%2526ext%253D230923%2526es%253D0%2526nqc%253DAAAAAAAAAAAACgAAACAAAAABAAABAAAAAAAAAEAAAwAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAABQAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgA**%2526nqt%253DAAAAAAAAAAAACgAAACAAAAABAAABAAAAAAAAAEAAAwAAIAAIAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAABQAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgA**%2526ec%253D1%2526sojTags%253Des%253Des%252Cnqc%253Dnqc%252Cnqt%253Dnqt%252Cec%253Dec%252Cexe%253Dexe%252Cext%253Dext%252Cbu%253Dbu%252Cch%253Dch%252Csegname%253Dsegname%252Ccrd%253Dcrd%252Curl%253Dloc%252Cosub%253Dosub%2526srcrot%253De11011.m43.l3160%2526rvr_id%253D0%2526rvr_ts%253Dca2ed8eb1770aca003a2a020fff9229d&ul_noapp=true
     
  5. Ferrar55whoa

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    #204 Ferrar55whoa, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    Simple, clean 550 on BaT today. The market is amazing? I'm not sure I understand what in the world is going on but that's ok.

    Hopefully for the seller the transaction actually gets done. The high bidder has been on the BaT platform for several years (Sept-2017) but has never commented and only bid on one other car ever. His single bid was decent step up so hopefully he understood how things worked and will close with the seller.

    1997 550 SOLD on 2/23/21 for $145,000 (before commission).....this just seems amazing to me?
    +) 20,562 miles
    +) Rosso Corsa over "beige"; in Winfield, KS
    +) no options; car cover, storage-steering wheel and storage-seat covers
    +) shrinking leather
    +) Needs a 5 year major/belt service
    +) All three fobs, tool kit, etc
    +) https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1997-ferrari-550-maranello-12/
    +) didn't see a thread on the forum regarding the car
    +) 109583
     
  6. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    Chunky price! Is this like those 430 manual sales recently where there were other nicer cars available on the open market in the US for less?
     
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  8. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    And does this belong in the Maranellos are Disappearing thread?
     
  9. Ferrar55whoa

    Ferrar55whoa Formula Junior
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    #207 Ferrar55whoa, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    @Themaven I started this "Market Price" thread to investigate 575 sales vs 550 sales and originally discuss the F1-6MT conversion arbitrage .

    I had intended to continue during COVID which has resulted in strong sales which is NOT even kind of what I originally expected.

    If people don't get any value out of this, I don't mind stopping. Or maybe have a moderator merge the two if the forum participants would like all this in one place?

    Its just my personal opinion that a "stripper" 550 even in red at $145 plus fee plus deferred maintenance plus leather issues for a 20k mile car is "unusual".

    Its glorious (especially for sellers with Rosso Corsa) that people are really paying up.
     
  10. rubenpadron

    rubenpadron Formula 3
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    I’m curious, Eric: you’ve been following the market much closer than just about anyone I know and it seems like prices have been steadily on the rise. What would you have thought this would have brought in / why do you label this outcome as “unusual”?

    Cheers,

    Ruben
     
  11. Ferrar55whoa

    Ferrar55whoa Formula Junior
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    #209 Ferrar55whoa, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    @rubenpadron I don't think my opinion matters given what we are seeing on BaT.

    I would agree that I've been semi-crazy with how in depth i've been watching, digging, birddogging (550's and 575's).

    There are a few guys I've been PM'ing/Conversation with that are as "in touch" with the market .....or even more so......, we should hear from one of the guys soon on what was recently bought.....And I'm optimistic another of the guys will have a good PPI result soon.

    The guys I've been talking-with/helping are focused on "buying right now". I've got a small/modest collection of vehicles many of which I don't use already (limited time) so the "Maranello Hunt" is fun for me but I'm not under any self-imposed "gotta buy now or by X-date". For me, this is more "unicorn hunting" and would represent the "last car in an enthusiasts collection" for me. That's also why I've enjoyed this thread and the behind the scenes "note sharing" to help guys.

    When I look at the spreadsheet I'm maintaining for asking prices and then when I'm following up with individuals and dealers, it seems to me that there still is a discrepancy between the private market and the auction market.

    You asked directly so I'll answer the question.....for me, todays 1997 R/C 550 shouldn't have exceeded $110.

    That opinion is based on several recent BaT sales which I still think are inflated (and that's ok -- its definitely a sellers market).
    Lower "Investor Grade" miles and quality/documented/optioned cars are much higher....

    These three all have higher mileage but should be somewhat reasonable comps, many of which had good maintenance/prior-owners and desirable options.

    +) $113k https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-ferrari-550-maranello-15/
    +) $113.5k https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-ferrari-550-maranello-8/
    +) $115k https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-ferrari-550-maranello-13/

    I personally would not have bought today's car at even $100 in the private market (with no BaT fee) because its an earlier (1997) zero-option car (I personally do not prefer Rosso Corsa or Grigio Titanio -- personal preference only) and the car has a needed major service, with leather issues. I don't mind making an investment after acquisition but a purchase price in aggregate should make sense and to me, and todays result did not compute for me.

    Spending this kind of money without a PPI is also something I'm never doing again (BaT buyers are somewhat buying blind)? It feels like for a few of us that have done PPI's lately, it would be neat to have a thread just on "wow this is what I learned on a PPI" thread.

    For me personally, I'm an enthusiast not an investor so I'm not worried about originality or miles. That is one reason the potential F1-6MT conversion exercise is so interesting to me. Those "driver" quality 575's also likely jades my opinion of 550 values. If a very good "driver" 575 well-optioned can be bought for $85 plus $30 conversion then if you are a long hold enthusiast you theoretically wouldn't want to pay more than $115 for a 550 unless it was really special?

    That's just one knuckleheads thoughts......

    I'm REALLY interested in hearing yours and other guys thoughts.

    p.s. F-chatter EZ2SPD's recent BaT sale at $176 seems more and more like a bargain buy for what that car represented......yet it languished here in classifieds (which also surprised me). I wouldn't allow myself to spend even $150 on one single car (I'm too frugal) and I'm not hot-to-trot for R/C but Brian (EZ2SPD's) car was very desirable in my opinion)
     
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  13. Ferrar55whoa

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    #210 Ferrar55whoa, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    @rubenpadron I would amend the above comment and also note....as an example...one car I found desirable if not just a little expensive....was the 24k mile TdF 2001 MY 550 in Michigan that was purchased very recently by @rhern213

    That car had the need for service but was LISTED at $120 and looked nice....I have a very strong fondness for TdF......Rich noted he got a price he was comfortable with given the maintenance the car needs. I don't know what he executed at and he very well might not want to divulge that (I respect that) but if he told us he paid $110 that wouldn't surprise me and I'd say well bought.

    https://lbilimited.com/offerings/2001-ferrari-550-maranello/

    That 2001 TdF is dead sexy from where I stand and I'd have taken it at close to ask any day and twice on sunday over today's 1997 R/C with similar miles and no quilted shelf at $145 plus fees.



    Ruben, i'll share one more personal story, I've shared part of it I think on this forum somewhere.
    I LOVE the hunt/chase......when I was a kid in the 70's/80's my grandpa had a Yuma Yellow Meyers Manx (dune buggy). Very long story short, after he passed it was sold to a guy that exported it to France. I conducted a 3 year search for a "tagged" Yuma Yellow Manx from 1969 which I then turned into my vintage baja 1000 racer. It was literally 5 "chassis" different from Grandpa Chuck's. That's how crazy the search can get for me...it annoys my wife when I make such a small "search box".
    I enjoyed searching, then building and then racing that car but the hunt was a lot of fun. ;-)
     
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  14. rubenpadron

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    Thanks for sharing thoughts @enesset - I hope you end up buying your ride soon as these are incredibly special cars, although it seems like you’re enjoying the hunt. :)

    I don’t keep as close of an eye on the market as I don’t ever intend to sell my 550, but looking at Hagerty valuations, the BAT sales don’t seem too out of whack. Seems like this particular car could feasibly be a 3+ condition and it ended up right in the middle of the condition 2 and 3 range.

    Ruben
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. rhern213

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    #212 rhern213, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
    You are correct, I paid $110
    I initially did not want to pay more than $105 for it to be all in for $110 with a fully serviced ready to drive car. At first the seller was steadfast at $115 and I spent several weeks going back and forth until finally getting them down to $110.

    Ultimately I agreed because it was indeed the exact spec car I always wanted and the odds of coming across another one in my budget was slim to none. The extra $5k was well worth it to me.

    Also a quick update, the car was picked up by Reliable and on it's way! :)
     
  16. Ferrar55whoa

    Ferrar55whoa Formula Junior
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    @rhern213 and that is EXACTLY the smart move for a patient man.

    The search can get exhausting.....

    Another example of a guy that did an exhaustive and very intelligent search is @climbernyc

    I never asked @climbernyc what he recently paid for his Blue Pozzi (and I respect if he doesn’t want to share as well) but my impression with the conversations we had on prices for other cars we were both hunting....was that he also bought very intelligently and his car is also extremely attractive in my mind.

    there is a lot of work that goes into buying privately rather than at auction
     
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  17. root

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    You go to BaT to buy the car you want not to get a super deal. When the car you want shows up you should expect to pay a little extra to get it. No one sells a unicorn at a discount. If a super deal you're after then BaT is not the right place for that. You can do all kinds of analytics and comps but that can lead to information overload. Sites like Hagerty, Ferrari ML, and even BaT already have the information those seriously looking to buy a Ferrari use to inform their valuation and decision making.
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Eric- That 550 is not a stripper because the Scaglietti options were not available until around Winter 97/98.
     
  19. Themaven

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    Eric, I’m loving the information, insight, context and also your writing style. Keep it up! You are a font of knowledge. I guess it’s inevitable that this and the Disappearing thread will overlap but maybe it doesn’t matter.

    I definitely recommend a manual 575, whether original or converted. Wish I drove mine more.
     
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  20. Qksilver

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    I agree - I like your format Eric.

    When I have some time I'll try to properly articulate some thought around pricing and BaT.
     
  21. cubbyman60

    cubbyman60 Formula Junior

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    Do you think the red demand less of an asking price for 550/575? I've seen a handful of Maranellos but I've never seen a red one in person. Does it not suit the car as the other colors do?


     
  22. Ferrar55whoa

    Ferrar55whoa Formula Junior
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    Several of the “heavies” here have red cars.

    Right now the BaT marketplace feels like collectors not necessarily enthusiasts so “Ferrari and red” go hand in hand.

    that last sale I’m hard pressed to understand why it went so high but being red in that instance didn’t hurt.

    It definitely feels like from searching and reading here and in the registry in Nathan’s book that for Maranellos, R/Corsa and GTitanio are the two most common.
     
  23. rhern213

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    I'll say that for my personal taste, the 550 is one of the few Ferraris where red is not my favorite.
    I prefer all the V8's in red, and I prefer the previous and later V12's in red.
    For whatever reason the lines and shapes of the 550/575/456 group of cars look better in something like a TDF blue of what I bought.
    But as Eric mentioned I also believe this is just for enthusiasts, outside of limited edition cars collectors will always buy red.

    I will add one thing is I was very surprised this red one (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-ferrari-550-maranello-15/) only reached $113k on BAT given it's immaculate service history and money spent on preventative maintenance, it was as mint an example as I've ever seen and was following this car closely to bid on myself and assumed it would reach close to $120k. I guess this may support my thoughts where this group of cars in red has minimal market difference, and at almost 40k miles it would mostly only be enthusiasts in the action.
     
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  24. NE550

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    #221 NE550, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
    For an overall summary of Ferrari production by general color from 1997 to 2008, see this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/550-maranello-production-numbers-by-color.631165/ The charts and graphs are from The Official Ferrari Magazine (courtesy of Taz, of course). As you surmise, "red" in general has constituted around 50% of Ferrari production for years, and the vast majority of that is, of course, Rossa Corsa.
     
  25. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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  26. Qksilver

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  27. fedcoin

    fedcoin Formula Junior

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    Red is a chicks car
     
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  28. Ferrar55whoa

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    #225 Ferrar55whoa, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
    Terry @tazandjan in all the market searching and thread digging I’ve done, I think your 575 even before being blessed by our Italian friend, was probably the highest order of unicorn!

    I would have to check my notes but our other San Francisco Bay Area friend @p1turbo with the high mile and well loved TdF (or maybe black I can’t recall) and carbon I think is on my very short list for most desired 575’s. I LOVE it when guys rack up the miles.
     

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