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Maserati 200 SI VIN 2403

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Tadini, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. Tadini

    Tadini Rookie

    Jul 15, 2011
    3
    Hello to all,

    I am trying to find somebody who can tell me a few more details regarding a car that was offered to me and which seems to carry at least some repro parts on it. It is a 200 SI Barchetta VIN 2403, formerly owned by Edmond Pery, but which has meanwhile passed trough other hands. The basic question is whether it is a genuine example. Browsing through the threads, I found an earlier discussion where this car is mentioned as supposedly built from pieces as a copy of 2422. This is by the way the number of the engine which is currently fitted.
    If necessary, I could also post some pictures of the frame etc.
     
  2. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,700
    Edmond the man who loves all sort of girls.... had two 200S: #2403 and #2422. While #2422 was a good, original car, #2403 is doubtful. It was inspected by Steve Hart on behalve of a member of this forum and myself. He found the majority of components are non-original incl. the chassis. The engine had some original parts. Also the body is not original.

    The car is on the market since many years by a great number of dealers - and did not sell!

    Edmond made the mistake telling always different story how he came to #2403, non of this stories were convincing at the end of the day....

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  3. Tadini

    Tadini Rookie

    Jul 15, 2011
    3
    Thank you for your warning, Walter. This is what I suspected, but did not want to speak out frankly. I am not a Maserati expert, but even to me the diff housing, radiator, body shell, and rear part of the frame looked repro. There are also many relatively cheap wrong parts on the car which let the whole thing down, like wrong hose clamps, modern nuts and such, which is quite uncommon on a valuable car.
    I would have thought that the basic chassis was original, and also the engine,though. Are you sure that it is also made from scratch? The weldings looked authentic to me, but as I said, my knowledge is not very deep. I am better if it comes to early Alfas...
     
  4. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,700
    Not exactly sure about the chassis.

    Can we agree on the term that #2403 is "...not a good car from the 200S-series"?

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  5. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    495
    When one of the former owners of "#2403" applied for the American Ferrari Historic Challenge my opinion (amongst others) was asked in January 2009 by David Seibert who was responsible for the selection of the cars. Subsequently and duly the car was not accepted.

    BTW: Engine #2403 is in #2409. IMHO the stamping of the engine in "#2403",#2422, is not a correct one.

    Regards


    Wolfi
     
  6. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,700
    #6 wbaeumer, Jul 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is #2403 at various periods:

    1. the original car, fitted with Fiandri-body at the 1000 Km Nuerburgring 1956. The car was driven by Francesco Giardini and was a DNF.

    2. the car in Oct. 1980. Now a totally wrong body is fitted on the car.

    3. the car today, now fitted with a Fantuzzi-style coachwork.

    Edmond once told me (beside some of his funny stories about his girlzzzzz....) that the car was a "barn find" and restored by him in 1979.....

    Prior to him the car was seen with Homer Tsakis, who owned no less than three 200S at the same time, al of them more or less project cars.

    Too much confusion about the today "#2403"...

    Ciao!
    WAlter
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    NEP likes this.
  7. mairesse

    mairesse Karting

    Nov 20, 2009
    145
    London and Cotswolds
    Full Name:
    Gordon
    If you want a few photos of what a real component, casting, stamp etc on a 200S looks like, send me a private message.
    Gordon
     
  8. Tadini

    Tadini Rookie

    Jul 15, 2011
    3
    Thanks to everybody. You have helped me to avoid a possible mistake. Meanwhile the facts are relatively clear and we also have the results of the expertise including a metal analysis. It all corresponds with the objections mentioned here. If somebody needs further info, he can send me a private message.
     
  9. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2006
    5,223
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    Yep if I smell my computer screen I can tell by the odor it is a dodgy car;-)

    Just looking at it...even though this is not the era I specialize in...not a good feeling too many new looking bits.

    Last year I had a ride in another dubious car of that era, it looks legit all parts seem genuine period parts...but it is not accepted by Classiche Its owner wanted to pay me to do a book about it to prove its legitimacy...I looked into the story of it and think that it was made from genuine bits...of which the Orsi's had a mountain of, after the sale to Citroen, in the old unused Maserati foundry factory which was a few minutes from the factory. Omar Orsi was selling some parts in the 70's and just having scrap metal dealers pick them up.
    A few Swedish guys, as per a story in the Swedish club mag went to Modena in about 1977 met Omar Orsi by chance. Since they asked him about parts he took them there, they bought bits and filled their station wagon and small trailer...at the same time a scrap metal dealer was filling a truck...after they said goodbye to Orsi...they followed that truck (we Swedes can be canny;-)) and it led them to the scrapyard where there were loads of old racong car parts...and the owner of the scrpyard had a brnd new Khamsin by the way. Can you parallel economy:)?!

    Then later the same day as they drove through Modena on the way to their hotel for a shower and dinner Omar Orsi saw them drive by and they thought he looked very surprised and yes embarassed when he saw their trailer with even more bits...

    Then as former mega collector museum owner Peter Kaus told me in 1995, when de Tomaso took over Maserati from Citroen he was having the last remaining such bits thrown away and Joel Finn the historian/restorer was there with a truck happily filling it up...

    So that car which I won't identify here or in response to any emails pr PM's, was, I believe, made that way with real parts against Omar Orsi's will, someone betrayed his trust. Being made with real parts -much more so than the 200SI which this thread is about- is not enough: the X car I am mentioning was not made in period at the factory is not a part of their official records and Maserati Classiche won't discuss that car. Since I had a good rapport with them I declined doing the book about the car. It it s what it is but NOT a proper factory built car.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  10. GrigioFox

    GrigioFox Rookie

    Dec 13, 2016
    4
    After some more digging the story of Chassis 2403 unfolds like this:

    1957 - after the Mille Miglia, 2403 sold to Lance Reventlow by Maserati Officine.
    28th July 1957 - Lance Reventlow has a bad accident at Snetterton. The damaged car, 2403, was sent to his home in California.
    Reventlow then buys chassis no. 2422 in Europe (possibly from Maserati) and competes in the Nassau Tourist Trophy on 1st December 1957. He was the Woolworth heir and could afford to buy whatever cars he wanted!
    15th June 1958 - Laguna Seca: Reventlow entered one of his 200s cars - not clear whether it was 2403 or 2422.
    No further records of either 2403 or 2422 being raced by Reventlow who then moved on to racing Scarabs and progressed to become a Formula 1 driver. He could easily afford to hold on to both cars.
    Reventlow died in light aircraft accident in July 1972 and his estate sold both cars to Homer Tsakis in New York. Tsakis had an comprehensive Alfa Romeo collection as mentioned elsewhere.
    Tsakis sold both 2403 and 2422 to Edmond Pery in the late 80's and Pery shipped both cars to Belgium. It is likely that neither car had been driven for some 20 years and Pery was well equipped to do the necessary work to restore/rebuild the cars as necessary. For example there are some of his 200s casting boxes offered for sale here: https://www.ital-spares.com/brand/maserati/596/casting-box-foundry-box/gussform?c=109. It is therefore clear that Pery did not worry too much about using original spec parts to keep his cars running. He probably swapped parts between the cars as he needed to whilst machining new replacement parts.
    Pery raced both cars and threw a conrod in 2422's engine. He then moved engine no. 2403 and put it in 2422's chassis. Engine no. 2422 was welded up and repaired and put into 2403. Both cars were road registered in Belgium as HB 325 and EEV 292.
    2422 (now UK Reg no. 957 YUH) was sold to Kidston and offered for sale: https://www.kidston.com/motorcars/2427-1957-Maserati-200Si/
    2403 was sold to a French dealer before ending up in London (UK Reg no. 978 XUU). It has since been in the hands of Steve Hart for restoration to original spec before appearing at 2018 and 2019 Mille Miglia and Goodwood Revival.
     
  11. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,700
    Sorry, but you are completely wrong:

    Reventlow once owned #2405. (I have copies of the factory invoice). Yes, he later purchased #2422.

    Edmond Perry`s "#2403" was a complete fake despite some original parts and -probably- an original engine. As of my knowledge Steve Hart worked on it briefly many moons ago but has nothing to do with it anymore. According to my note this car came to Italy in 2009.

    The genuine #2403 was sold in 1968 to the Artom brothers in Italy. They sold the car in 1977 to the father of the current very private owner also in Italy. I have copies of all sale documents. It is a VERY original car.
     
  12. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 9, 2007
    312
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    Bravo Walter! What would we do without your amazing collection of Maserati information because without your participation a lot of incorrect information would be put out which would muddied the waters as time goes on.
     
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  13. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,700
    Btw.- my post #6 shows the real #2403 as it still looks today. Its the 2nd photo from top. The car was born with a Fiandri body (seen in the same thread, top photo) but received later a body by Fantuzzi. Its nose was modified in the late 1960s.
     
    3500 GT likes this.
  14. marat

    marat Rookie

    Jan 17, 2006
    21
    On the above image car #29, Nurburgring 1000 km 1956, was a Maserati 150S. There were no 200S at that race.
     
  15. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,700
    It was born -like all early 200Ss- as a 150S. Thats why I wrote that it came with body made by Fiandri and was later modified to full 200s specs with a new body made by Fantuzzi.
     

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