Maserati 4.9 V8 Engine

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Freitag, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
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    SoCal
    Sorry if changing subject too much from valve clearances, timing, etc.

    On my mind long time:
    Aperiodically here I've read some comments from persons denigrating the design or execution of the Maserati V8 vintage crankshafts, as seen in practice. References are made to some 'expert' in Germany (of course) who has 'corrected' this.

    Regrettably, there never seems to be (or I've missed) any objective actual documentation of how the racing geniuses of Maserati could have bungled such a simple and well-known technology, and just exactly how. Let alone any objective documentation of what exactly was done to 'cure' same. One assumes balance issues or inadequate mainbearing cap strength, as sometimes there's mention of a kind of 'girdle' application. I'll be entirely surprised if any failure story isn't mostly a fictional excuse for someone's subsequent unskilled rebuild that failed, rather than some fault from the factory engine design.

    Top fuel engine designers in USA have tried girdles, crossbolting, and much much more. They seem to have a fair grip by now on what works and what not so much. All that is well documented and can be found objectively. This is not a mystery, if objective language is used, and facts revealed. While most of that was post-Bora era, principles remain.

    How about some REAL information and hard data on any such Maserati crankshaft issues revealed and not just alluded to or hypothecized? My Bora rev's regularly and well to the very top ranges without issue. IE, not yet blown up after quite a while. If it's a matter of just getting more power or moving the torque/power crossover curves, like to know that too. Real data please, actually measured on dyno' etc.

    Mine is breathing really well after replacement of US exhaust with straight headers and reduced muffling, etc., seems to be getting full power. Would like to take it to dyno' but haven't had any justification/excuse so far. Will report actual data if that ever happens. Many on this forum must have done that however--so please let us all know what the curves really look like. And, if there's ever been any actually documented instance of failure of factory design, what it really was.

    If anyone actually knows or can objectively recite how the 73 Bora Threpenier cars made over 450hp, would like to know all details there also. Real details preferred.

    Sorry for any rant effect... just tired of lack of hard information regarding a serious matter.
    Best regards,
    NE
     
  2. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    the bora crank bearing radius is almost non existent. Maserati changed that when they made the QP3 and put a proper radius at the bearing journal . Al. Block will lose 30% strength in 20 years. have fun with revs, but remember these two things. a poster from Germany on Maserati life, Dr. Doll had his company make steel blocks bottom end braces. his motors are very solid. at one time, about 2005 he would sell these very reasonable. also Al. flywheels were mad. I never looked for a source but they were on ebay back then. I do have a std.-std. crank stored away as well as a spare transaxle and a few other goodies left over. I sold the Bora . I felt uncomfortable driving it, too cramped. I did keep two Merak SS. that's all I know.. very little
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Reference please.

    There are many old 105 series Alfa Romeos, for example, still racing on older blocks than that so I doubt your comment.
    Pete
     
  4. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Question my knowledge. I am in shock😉 This is a first for me😂
     
  5. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3
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    Nov 13, 2010
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    I'm not an expert in the field of metallurgy by any means, but I thought Al actually got stronger (and harder) as it aged, if properly tempered. It's used extensively in boat building for hulls as well as satellites, is it not?

    I would think this kind of applications would require materials that were stable over time and over many cycles of thermal extremes.

    No?
     
  6. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    I will try to find the article on the Bora motor. I came from Dr. Doll Germany posted on ************ in 2005. This I googled latimes.com1992-03-18ralphvartaledian. He notes the 30% loss article says that more Al. Most be used because of the loss.
     
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  8. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3
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    Nov 13, 2010
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    While you guys discuss the relative merits & strengths of Al engine blocks, does anyone have a suggestion for recommended Maserati mechanics in Europe?

    I'd like to find a place that can take care of the valves, timing chain, etc.

    Thanks.
     
  9. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Sounds so easy. It's not😩 Same big problem here. Drugs and sorry work force have taken over. 😡 Best of luck. Want to read a few night mares read my post. I am going through one now. 365 motor
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    If this quote is what you meant, this has nothing to do with ageing but heat. In fact serious over heat as an engine would never reach 200 degrees (Celsius) but he may have meant Farenheit therefore 93.33 degrees C, which could occur in a typical engine over heating situation. Overheating an alloy engine has been a known bad thing since Adam and Eve were chasing each other around the garden of Eden ;)

    No offense, but that guys articles read like something that was written in the 1970's ... wtf? The rest of the world has had alloy blocks or all alloy engines for many decades and sure they do not take lack of maintenance abuse like cast iron engines but they are very reliable. Sure you have to use a torque wrench, but should you really be working on an engine if you don't have one or know how to use it?

    Very weird.

    I would say it is more likely that the Maserati v8 has some design flaws than just the use of Aluminium, but I must say after reading those articles should "the average American" car owner be entrusted to something as complex as a Maserati v8. But surely a Bora owner would not be the average American car owner? Note ~95% of the worlds population are not car enthusiasts and never open the bonnet ... that is what GM/Ford have to build for, not Maserati.
    Pete
     
  11. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    If I find a more specific study I will post.
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Thanks mate.

    Maybe I will have to look at heat treating my old Alfa's block and head when I rebuild it. Currently the body is being restored. I do know of a guy that had his cylinder head heat treated for a racing application BTW.
    Pete
     
  13. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    That is something new to me. But I know nothing about that part of knowledge Enjoy your cars
     
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  15. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Aluminum gets weaker as the heat and load cycles pile up. That is the reason drag racers change aluminum rods regularly. They are willing to make the trade off of a very short life cycle for lighter weight.

    See Table 1 on pg. 7 and Table 2 on pg. 8 for tensile strength and modulus of elasticity for cast iron vs aluminum. http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~ernesto/F2010/EP2/Materials4Students/Lenny/Nguyen2005.pdf

    Also here: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-diesel-car-engines-made-of-iron-rather-than-other-metals and Mechanical Engineering.: Engine block manufacturing process


    On top of the problems with old heat cycled aluminum is that the Maserati block lacks a deep skirt. Maserati should have looked at what American V8 were doing in the 1950s, especially the early Chrysler Hemi.
     
  16. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Not my kind of guy. I almost had the guy locked up over a problem. It got resolved at the very last min. Literally.
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I also found this: Maserati V8s, and it ends with: In the next issue the weakness of the engines and living with them. Unfortunately I cannot find that next issue :(
    Pete
     
  18. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    thank you for finding the Dr. Doll article. while he was doing all these mods and casting an iron block for his Bora he an I discussed my having a steel billet crank done. then our President got elected and my toy money dried up overnight. his Bora motor was pushing 500 HP at that time. Heywood's comment about fractured cranks is off mark. my Bora came with a bad crank. I had it welded. when an extra std. std. bora crank came on the market I grabbed it. I still have it. Maseratisource got the Bora. I asked him if he wanted the crank. he passed, was not interested. Randy Rizzo(sp?) sold me the crank. early on he was very reasonable pricing things. Pete, this is the man, Dr. Doll. I feel relieved.
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I am unable to download all that document at the moment. We do experience wifi issues.

    BTW: Maserati cranks are a known issue, even with the straight 6 cylinder engine according to my previous readings.

    Other manufacturers have been able to design and build alloy v8 engines so I still believe that the Maserati design is flawed, not the material.
    Pete
     
  20. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Hi Pete, I couldn't get the PDF to open on my ipad, but it works on other devices so you could try that. I have no idea why!

    good luck, it's a very interesting read.

    Mark.
     
  21. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    There is a difference in quality when working on my 1976 V12 Ferrari block and the 1980 Block. Threads pull easy on the early one
     
  22. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    269
    Gentlemen---

    Has anybody actually read this "article"?
    I am not familiar with the author but his hallucinations about the Bora obviously require serious medical intervention, beyond the scope of my expertise.

    Any mental health professionals out there please chime in!

    Regards.
     
  23. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
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    Both articles were published by the Maserati Club of Great Britain. They have a website and they may have it inventoried on the website.
     
  24. mamamia

    mamamia Karting

    Dec 14, 2010
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    I was the webmaster for the website of the Maserati Club GB and can assure you that this article has not been published on the Club website.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Got it now saved on my PC :). I'll read that after work. First page or two are very interesting as you say.
    Pete
     
  26. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #275 PSk, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    Debatable, the Lancia D50 v8 was designed and entered the end of the 1954 F1 season ... so who was first to run, the D50 or 450s (apparently design started in 1954 but the D50 was running and already testing)?

    In regards to the 30% strength loss for all aluminium alloys after 10 years, I'm sorry I still debate this. How many aeroplanes are still flying after more than 10 years of service ... plenty. Also as an Alfisti I know of many old Alfas, mine included, that are still running original heads and blocks and in some cases making more power and being revved harder than when new.

    But yes there are many flaws in this old v8 design, including with the fuel injection system, and the major one of a weak block. I can think of many improvements I could make to my Alfa engine too, maybe not as necessary, but why? ... just buy the moderner car IMO.
    Pete
     

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