Maserati 4.9 V8 Engine

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Freitag, Jun 10, 2009.

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  1. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    "In 1971 came the Bora introduced with the 4.7 V8 and weighing 1400 kilos it was not a light car. It also used Citroen style brakes and suspension. This was slightly less than ideal, at modest speeds the Bora is a very nice car you can just use the high gears and the torque will take you along beautifully, but once you get up to around 125 mph which is very easy with the Bora, the Citroen steering is not precise enough. On the last models it was changed to rack and pinion. The Citroen brakes are not progressive enough and if you really start to drive especially on a circuit exciting things can happen very quickly. I was doing a press release for potential customers after the Turin Motor Show in 1974 or 1975 and was driving John Taylor the motor correspondent for Country Life around the Modena Autodrome, young Bertocchi was the works manager. There was a short sharp shower of rain and going into the right hander before the short straight I touched the brakes to steady the car, I spun of course, managed to keep it on the black stuff but actually proceeded past the pits backwards. I half spun it again deliberately and then proceeded on my way. John Taylor thought the proceedings hilarious but when I came round again Bertocchi was standing on the Pit Counter wearing a brown gabardine Mac and giving frantic arm flapping slow down signals. He looked like one of the pictures you see of overfed vultures in vain trying to take off! I decided it would be best to leave the circuit by the back entrance as it was late afternoon. John and I saw Bertocchi later at the Reale Finni Hotel where we were staying and he never said a word."

    This is a rather embarrassing article to have published on the UK club's website. Is it April fools?

    Having driven my Bora on the track and under full steam this is account is nothing more than the obvious blatherings of someone who's never even ridden in the car, a poseur. That or he's a hallucinogenic.

    Perhaps this explains it: Alice in Wonderland 2015 - 150th Anniversary - Forthcoming Events
     
  2. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Just as an aside, any cases of catastrophic Maserati V8 failures i ever heard about involved someone doing something extreme like turbocharging. Similar bad fates befell the early Lamborghini V12s.

    If you use the vehicle as originally intended these motors work very well. Plenty of QPIIIs have seen 100K in the hands of qualified owners. Sadly like most of their cars the owners were not. True of Lamborghini and Ferrari as well until they became the darlings that they are today.
     
  3. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2008
    969
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hello QuattroporteIII...

    Any luck finding a mechanic in Europe who knows about QPIII's??

    Mike
     
  4. george-mountain

    Dec 14, 2008
    48
    Cologne - Germany
    Hello,

    My 3500 Vignale Spider was maintained for 12 years (until it was stolen this year) by:

    Bergmann Motorentechnik | Engine Engineering since 1976

    I was always very satisfied with the work of father and son Bergmann.

    He is specialised to all 6 and 8 Cylinder Maserati pre 80's.

    His workshop is located near Düsseldorf, Germany
     
  5. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,040
    Hi Mike,

    so far I've found Bergmann in Düsseldörf who come's highly recommended. They've given me a price, which I'm considering.

    Still looking for a few options in Denmark and/or Holland. I wonder who Bart used for his Ghibli? I should ask him. I'm sure Marc knows of several places too.

    I wonder how many Euro owners are here on the list, it seems like a great many are in/from the US.

     
  6. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    what is the estimate and what does the quote cover, please. I have two QP1's that need major work
     
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  8. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,040
    Hi Mitchell,

    I don't think it's appropriate to post a quote in a public form such as this, but I'm sure he'd be happy to give you a quote if you contacted him.

    You are aware that you're in Kentucky, and he's in Düsseldorf?

    That's Düsseldorf as in Germany! :)

    I know of two very competent Maserati mechanics in the US, if you'd like someone closer to home.
     
  9. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2008
    969
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    What two very competent Maserati mechanics in the US are you referring to?

    Also, without giving price, can you tell us exactly what work/service he quoted you for, and did it include parts, etc...

    Thanks...

    Mike
     
  10. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,040
    Hi Mike,

    the one guy is in Marina del Rey, his name is Robert Jenni, he's Swiss and his shop is called Exotic performance. They should show up in the Yellow Pages/Yelp/Google.

    I don't have the other name handy (am travelling), but will have a look if you remind me.

    The quote I received was for a valve job, and it included both parts and labor, but each specified separately. He estimated 2-3 days for the job. He would also have a look at the timing chain and tensioner.


     
  11. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    I have my Ferrari 365 at Motor Werks. Noblesville, Ind. fixing problems from a just overhauled job. The man is 78. Has two sons working with him. So far he has done exactly what he said he would. Found some of the issues. He is still in the checking process. I did not ask how much. I just want a car I can drive after spending $175,000 so far. Makes me sick to think about this. If this cost ends up reasonable I will send him more work
     
  12. MrMark

    MrMark Karting

    Apr 3, 2013
    119
    Louisiana, USA
     
  13. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Art
    I'll ask my question about installing new 'Euro' spec headers here too, if for no other reason than to revisit this interesting thread...

    Does anyone have experience to share about installing the MIE Euro headers in their 4.9 Bora?
    - is it an engine out task?
    - starter motor out?
    - shift linkages out?
    - must I have a lift, or can I get this done with a set of 18" jackstands?

    Thanks,
    - Art

    PS - I wonder how Elliott Siegel is doing with his 4.9 build?
     
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  15. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    254
    Hi Art,

    Mine came with Euro headers, possibly MIE's but not bought there. I have pictures of the subframe/drivetrain after I pulled it showing how the headers go through the subframe, if that would help.
     
  16. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    276
    Grayslake, Illinis
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    Elliot M. Siegel
    Ah, I see my name has come up. Sadly, it's been one step forward and two steps back. I had engine number one ready for dyno testing and placed it on the dyno at VDS Racing Engines down in Indianapolis only to run into engine harness problems which prevented the engine from running. After getting a new test harness made just for the dyno run we ran into another rather more serious problem. We got the engine running but due to a software problem the spark advance curve would not flatten out as the engine rpm's got higher. Of course when this was seen the dyno test came to a rapid halt. The next four weeks were spent trying to sort out the software problem so that the spark advance would operate properly. Unfortunately, the maker of the ECU, a Pectel SQ6M, a very sophisticated and expensive unit used in previous years for IRL racing, Cosworth, a very well known name in racing and a substantial company, no longer provides any support for their units. After weeks of chasing around to see if we could get someone to assist in solving the problem, we were informed that the United States representative for Cosworth had quit and despite calls to Europe and other people in the racing community, we could come up with no solution to the software problem. Therefore, after a great deal of time, effort and money spent trying to solve there Pectel software problem, I have been forced to move on to look for another ecu for the engine. This will require modifying the test harness and putting out significant money in order to come up with a suitable ecu that matches the previous one's level of sophistication. I need not tell you what my level of aggravation is as you all can imagine just how unhappy I am at this moment in time as this was decided just yesterday. Fortunately, both of the manufacturers I am considering, Life Racing and Bosch, have what I want readily available. It is up to my engine man, Chuck Cornelian, and my engine tuner, Jim Stevens, to decide which unit they favor. Some calls will be made tomorrow by Jim to determine who can provide the best support and backup for the engine ecu. Once that is determined, which will be done in the next couple of days, I will rob my children's inheritance fund (just kidding) and have a replacement ordered by the end of this week or by Monday of next week. All in all, this donnybrook has cost a great deal of money and considerable lost time in getting the Bora ready to go back on the road. I am bound and determined to get the engine up and running, ready for the Bora, no later than the end of April. I'll bring everyone up to date as soon as it has been successfully run and provide the data we get when we run it for everyone's review.
     
  17. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Art I did years ago, a lot of years ago with the engine in the car. I did it alone with the car up on jack stands. I did not take the starter out. I don't think I disassembled the shift linkage because I did all of this before I did my engine out restoration project.

    You might want to think about doing the firewall enhanced access panels modification first.
    I think that's described in one of the MIE magazines.

    That was first done by George Marin and I did mine shortly afterwards. He never did drop his engine and even too his ZF transaxle out up through the top. It's not very noticeable and it makes any front engine service incredibly easier. Basically you triple the side of the existing opening and add another one of similar size behind the driver's seat.

    But I did put in my headers without this modification.

    You will also probably need to have new transition pipes made from the headers to the rear exhaust cans. These need to be made carefully for proper clearance as well as well insulated. I think I'd have the headers and pipes ceramic coated inside and out as well as having those transition pipes wrapped. Heat is the big enemy in a Bora's engine compartment.

    I drove my Bora from my house in SF down California street for about 4 miles with no mufflers on at all directly to the muffler shop! It sounded glorious bouncing off of the buildings! :D
     
  18. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Thanks GLB, Elliot and Bob,
    That about answers all the questions I had.

    GLB,
    Yes, it would be a nice help to see your geometry, everything helps. I'll PM you my email in case that's easier than posting here.

    Bob,
    My Bora has an accessory access panel behind the passenger seat, insulated and leather-wrapped to match the interior, but I bet the 'enhanced' access you speak of is in addition to this. I'll talk with Kerry or Stuart at MIE about their modification article. If I have anything less than full confidence in my capabilities, I can always fall back on Dave Burnham and Carter.

    Elliot! Holy cow,
    Best wishes for a smooth dyno and shakedown process and may you find yourself behind the wheel of your Bora soon enough!



    APROPOS HEAT EXTRACTION (Bora Specific)…..

    I read through this thread last night and followed the general discussion about the airflow properties of the Bora's rear engine hatch, vapor lock, possible lack of heat extraction, methods for additional cooling, etc. Bob shared his many observations and experiences managing engine heat from the Nevada Silver State events… and the performance required in competition shines a spotlight on weaknesses.

    My Bora had persistent overheating issues, even before I bought it. I think Steve Hume was the prior owner's mechanic, and recalled this problem with #932 when Dave Burnham contacted him to discuss strategies.

    We solved my problems by the sum of small interventions which came down to this:
    1.) Clear the front radiator of all obstructions: Mine had the AC evaporator mounted on adaptor plates, which blocked airflow through the radiator. We removed all this.
    2.) Check the bleeder valve and tube at the top of the t-stat housing to allow complete and proper bleeding of the coolant system. Mine had corrosion blockage.
    3.) Use Water Wetter for better heat transfer to the coolant (someone else mentioned this already).
    4.) Thin the coolant mixture ratio from 50/50 to (20% glycol)/(80% distilled water)...anticipate and adjust seasonally for winter freezing conditions.
    5.) I "slushed" the two long steel coolant transfer pipes between the engine and radiator to remove scaled corrosion that might prevent flow. I did find photos of a Copper painted Bora with cooling fins welded the length of both of these pipes. Is that Ivan's 1977?

    We did this all at once, so we don't know which had the greatest benefit, and my Bora went from an "overheating within 10 minutes driving anywhere below 30mph" to "keeping its coolant in a 45 minute Boston traffic jam on an 85'F August afternoon with my 5 year old son on board".

    NOTE for Boralogist:

    At some point in the thread, someone mentioned adding an external oil cooler mounted to the engine bay cross bar… and you said you are exploring this. I think just for cooler temperatures, it doesn't seem it's because you are overheating.

    Just in case this hasn't been considered yet - exhausting the oil cooler into the engine bay can potentially result in a net zero cooling effect. It just moves the heat from the oil, to the air, back into the engine bay, no? Unless the air is being extracted. Be mindful of the airflow and heat extraction problem before locating an oil-cooler to be sure it exhausts its hot air out of the engine bay, so maybe mount it at the rear screened vents?

    ALSO -
    There are some "cooling calculator" tools, maybe online, where you input a given max "horse power" (i.e. HEAT) and the outputs you fiddle with are radiator capacity & size, coolant flows, coolant sink capacity, etc.. I recall Dave Burnham's shop reviewing this for the Bora and the outputs indicated the Bora's factory radiator has enough cooling capacity - IF ALL the other components are operating at factory specs; i.e. coolant pump/flow, coolant's heat capacity, etc. That's why we did all we could to "enable" the components of the existing system, rather than adding more heat exchangers, to solve my "street stock" overheating problems.

    Cooling will be critical For Elloit, who is increasing the amount of heat generated by the HP he is going to get out of his 5.4L.

    CAVEAT: All the above is stated without expert confidence, but in the spirit of sharing what dangerously little I know about thermo-dynamics.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  19. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    287
    Hi Art---

    I can vouch for everything you have done.
    As I have also undertaken the almost identical procedure plus a few other minor things.

    In addition, a few years back, Elliot and I also had custom racing radiators manufactured for our Boras rated for 500+ bhp adorned with a custom cowling and monster SPAL fans.
    This, of course (!), made my Bora run hotter immediately as the incredible Spals were now producing an amount of airflow which had nowhere to exit, except making an oven of the front luggage compartment. After much thought I drilled tens of perfectly spaced holes underneath the radiator to allow the extracted heat to escape.
    Thus I ended up with a really cool running Bora under almost all circumstances, including sitting in a traffic jam at 100 degree weather with the AC on.

    However, when driven very hard and climbing mountains at speed the car would run warmer and warmer forcing me to slow down.

    Thus I started thinking of an oil cooler. The rear installation is what I believe Elliot did together with a thermostatic fan.
    I personally went another way.
    We installed an oil cooler behind the right front grille and ran the lines all the way back to an oil filter sandwich plate.

    The install was a nightmare but the result has been ASTONISHING.
    Simply ASTONISHING.

    Today the Bora will go anywhere at 100+ degree weather at 100 ++ mph.

    Hope that helps.

    Regards,

    B.
     
  20. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    B,
    That is great to hear, thanks for sharing. Well done you!

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  21. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    254
    Hi Art,

    Email would probably be better than clogging up the site with pictures of dirty old engines!

    Larry
     
  22. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    Art
    STARTER MOTOR:

    Has anyone opened up their Bosch 001-354-049 starter motor using the back cover to gain access?

    I'd like to know what trouble I'll get myself into if I remove the galvanized cover at the back of the motor case. This cover is held to the motor casing with two screws. I wish to take this cover off and inspect the interior after the motor fell on the floor of my garage and sustained a nasty dent. I'll push the dent out too.



    In related news, EURO HEADERS:

    The Euro headers arrived from MIE. The original ones cracked at a weld. Talking with Stuart at MIE, the advice is not to wrap the Euro headers in insulation unless they are ceramic coated first. But the factory used heat shields to protect adjacent accessories. So, I'll go that route, plus add a wrap around the starter motor.

    Here is the progress report on the Euro headers so far;

    Driver's Side: Nothing really difficult.
    Had to loosen the separate exhaust elbow around the driveshaft to move it and provide space to carefully wrestle the new header in place. The heat shield for the shift linkage was able to remain after I removed the forward acorn nut which came in contact with the new header pipes. For installation, every nut needs to be started its threads onto a stud before any further tightening, because one of the pipe elbows is bent close to the stud, you can't get the nut on the stud if the header is tightly in place. The rear flared end aligned perfectly with the existing elbow around the driveshaft, so no new parts needed. Once the headers were finger tight, I reassembled everything loosely and kept things in alignment as I tightened the header nuts and finally the exhaust pipe clamps.

    Passenger side: More problematic.
    I had to drop the bottom rear A-arm to get the old header out and the new one in. The rear spring was clamped, and the wheel was parking-braked and cargo-strapped in place to prevent unwelcome movement with the A-arm out. Removing the starter motor made it easier to access the nuts. I'll fabricate a new starter motor heat shield while it's out. The real problem I have is the second cylinder pipe conflicts about 1/2" with one of the engine frame members. I've sent photos to MIE for an opinion, but Stuart reports a solid record of success with these headers, so I will likely have my local exhaust fabrication shop modify the offending pipe as needed. Maybe Bora #932 was a Monday or Friday car, or maybe Wednesday or maybe too close to Siesta....

    In the meantime, I am very pleased to have small enough hands and fingers to contort them to reach all 32 of the 12mm bronze nuts. Damn, that took awhile.

    All this done under three pairs of 18" jackstands for safety and a bunch of comfortable carpet samples on the floor.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  23. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    Dec 31, 2005
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    The dirt out. Removing the cover does nothing to the starter. Me I bought a 1980 Chrysler with 318 motor. Saved 20 lbs. a new starter cost $165
     
  24. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    Thank you Mitch, I found some exploded views online that also helped illustrate the "guts" of the starter. I'm now waiting for its fresh paint to dry before I try spinning it or opening the cover. Glad to hear the price of new is reasonable.

    - Art
    PS - Good luck with your myriad projects, always interesting to read your updates!
     
  25. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    That's interesting. On mine the joint from the headers to snake around the half shafts was a slip joint and not a flange with a donut. Yours is an earlier car so ...

    The stock thermal reactors were insulated and cracked. That was 1979 and 16 years later put the most beautiful stainless steel jacketing around the cast iron exhaust manifolds on the Ghibli Open Cup series of cars meant for racing. The results were the same. I had to replace both manifolds shortly after owning that car with under 2K miles on it. SLOW LEARNERS.

    I have the plain steel header MIE used to sell. Mine got Jet Hot coated. After that burned off and turned to powder I had them aluminized obviously not for heat insulation. I then wrapped them in a wide glass based high heat fabric I got from some Nasa materials supplier in the S. SF Bay. It feels like fiberglass cloth. I didn't wrap it tightly around each runner but since it was wide I wrapped abound all the runners as a group and held that in place with a SS wire winding.

    A few years ago I picked up a set of SS headers from Maseratisource and was quite surprised to see a large intentional indentation in one of the runners on the RH side. My MIE steel headers didn't have that? So I returned them. I wonder if this is the issue with your interference problem? Clearly it was necessary on my Bora. ??? Call Jacques. MIE & he cooperate on some parts.
     
  26. MK1044

    MK1044 F1 Veteran
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    Carmine
    Oh yeah. He was going over the top with it. I wonder if he ever finished and how it turned out.
     
  27. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    ….you can scroll up on this page to response #289 and read his update.
     

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