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Maserati 4.9 V8 Engine

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Freitag, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    284
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    The latest update on the "over the top" Maserati V-8 is that we received the replacement ECU, a Bosch MS 6.2 that is new for 2016, at VDS Racing Engines and the harness maker is in the process of taking the test harness and modifying it. In order to be able to "talk" to the ECU from a laptop, a USB to CAN interface piece of hardware needs to be fabricated or bought from Bosch. My engine programer says that he feels he can come up with something that is less expensive than purchasing a dedicated unit from Bosch. However, if this is not accomplished by end of this week I will go ahead and get it from Bosch so we keep the project moving ahead as rapidly as possible. With the test harness reconfigured, www will be able to program the ECU on a bench top before taking over to the engine testing. Of course by this time I will be saying many prayers and incantations for success. If all goes well, I will have a running engine and we can move on to working on other aspects of getting my Bora back on the road. I should point out that all this work is being done on the original engine from my Bora which just involved changing from carburetion to fuel injection. An old Indy engine is engine number 2 and only the block and heads will be left, but heavily modified, for that engine. I'm waiting for the custom dry sump system, powered by electricity, to be engineering and built for that engine to come to life. Now that engine is truly custom.
     
  2. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Just a note Elliot, I have as you may know a 96 Ghibli Open Cup car and have unfortunately had to have machine work done on it (long story) and in the process I ended up glomming on to a shop that was at that time taking old 911s and turn them into full fledged, high advanced race cars for well heeled customer to use at the track and some in actual racing. Due to the crazy increase in 911 prices he's no longer doing this. But during that time I got hooked up with some good race fabricators and my engine guy who has since retired after badly injuring his right arm picking iup and engine block. During the 3 or 4 years I worked with him I sued to see some very interesting stuff in his shop as he had a dyno and did a lot of that work programming the ECUs . He was able to take the logged datas from my car while I was running at Watkins Glen and suggest future changes from looking at the datalog 3D maps. He had a lot experience in formula racing and it's why he was utilized by so many serious vintage racers link Duncan Dayton at Highcroft Racing in CT.

    He saw and utilized a lot of different systems but the one I saw a lot was MOTOC. They were however always complaining about tech support and how complex those systems could get. But he put a lot of motors on his dyno withose systems on them. Motec has plenty of competitors too.

    I would think that it can be that hard to find a decent system for your modified Bora engine?

    At one point he told that he's just finished using a system from Holland . I think it was this one: KMS - Engine Management Systems

    He said he found it so easy to use that he thought even I could set it up for a car! :D
    It has a self learning capacity to get you started but it was fully capable tuning form an expert on and engine or chassis dyno too.

    On the Biturbozentrum site we've had several guys implement newer ECUs to control Maserati's odd fire V6 Biturbo engine. One using a Motec and another one of the Australian competitors, Haltech. That's not easy an engine to set up either.


    There must be something easy to get with a friendly interface WO having to jump through hoops. Or is there really something about your mods that requires ultra capabilities?
     
  3. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    284
    Grayslake, Illinis
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    Elliot M. Siegel
    The problem with the old Pectel unit from Cosworth had to do with complex software issues. My ECU guru has a very long history with the Pectel SQ6M, having even been involved with it while working for Menard Racing while it was used as a spec ECU for IRL racing (Indy car racing) but with all his experience, he couldn't overcome the difficulties that came up. His contacts in the wider racing community, who are also familiar with this particular unit and with Cosworth ECU's in general and the software that Cosworth uses for all of its ECU's could provide no insight in solving our particular problem and when the individual who was trouble shooting for Cosworth for it's ECU's decided to leave the company, there was no recourse. Even telephone calls to England generated no support. The Pectel unit is very highly thought of but unlike some other units available is very flexible in its software and it's programmability. That can be both a blessing and a curse. We even refreshed the unit's software and did all kinds of changes and still couldn't over come our problem. It was only due to the lack of support that we abandoned it. I'm sure that with adequate support our difficulties would have been solved and we would have been very happy with the SQ6M but that wasn't going to happen and hence the change to the Bosch unit where support is a given. Bosch is a giant in the racing industry as well as in OEM equipment and there is no lack of support. The saddest thing was that when I bought the Cosworth ECU they were still committed to supporting it but changes in company direction as to electronics, moving more to data collection, data display and power management, has left the ECU unit hanging. Bosch will be in the ECU business for a long time, if for no other reason than it gigantic OEM presence in that market. Live and learn!
     
  4. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #304 staatsof, Apr 5, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's some photos of the headers I sent back. There were multiple issues with these. I suppose that's why they were inexpensive on eBay ...

    Note indentation in first runner. Such beautiful work ... :rolleyes:

    So would this indentation solve your interference issue?
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  5. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Art
    I posted my question on Moparts.com because of the drag racer and muscle car guys work with aftermarket tube headers a lot.

    One of the responders posted the following YouTube video. It was very enlightening…
    I highly recommend watching it until the 5:00 mark. Quite an eye-opener…

    https://youtu.be/azPKIjxmmdU

    After watching the video, it took me all of 15 minutes to hammer mine to a shape I'm very pleased with using a body-panel hammer. It fits fine. I just have some heat shields to fabricate before installing it.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  6. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Really Art? You do realize that here are so many variables that are very different here from your situation including the side of the dents?
     
  7. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    Funny video for sure.

    These headers were made of pretty large diam tubing, contrary to the Maser ones. Agreed, they also have to flow considerably more to make the power, but I'd be reluctant to start hammering. In fact, my l/h header is going to an exhaust place to get a dent out of it!

    At the same time I will also have the air-rail removed and the pesky restrictive ends of the air-injection inside the tubes removed.

    Best,

    Jack.
     
  8. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Hi, Jack

    Yours have the air injection at the ports which many earlier USA V8s had but the late ones receive a combination header/thermal reactor which I gather yours is not? The short runners go into tube about the size of a grapefruit in diameter and the length of the engine with a big air injection port like that on a catalytic convertor.

     
  9. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2008
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    Harriman, TN USA
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    Michael Demyanovich
    Hi Jack...

    It might be good if you post some pictures of your headers, showing the air-rail, and
    the restrictive ends.. Could be of use to someone down the line...

    Mike
     
  10. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Bob, Mike,

    Pics of these were posted quite some time ago in the Khamsin thread, but they may have gone since I let my subscription lapse a few weeks back. My bad.

    They are normal Euro headers, but have an air-rail close to the porths. Maserati in their quest to satisfy the emissions-police mounted an air-pump and associated rail, but no thermal reactor :)
    This is thus not of much consequence other than a restriction of flow from the injection-pipe ends in the tubes, and a weight penalty from the pump. Oh, and the extra belt. I am keeping my car absolutely standard and original where I can, but this arrangement rubs me the wrong way, I don't like the counter-productive clutter.

    Best,

    Jack.
     
  11. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Art
    Sure there are variables. But are they any reason to be concerned?

    The leeway indicated by the video is enormous. And header flow was the only variable in the HP/TQ results. Both our applications start with tuned high HP engines, meaning efficient burns, which should have measurable effects when you F with the setup. Dave Freiburger and his guys in the video bashed the crap out of all 8 of their headers with an arguable delta of 5%. I appreciate that dent location MAY matter, but that's speculation and that's where the differences end - unless I'm missing something? Which could be the case.

    You are at a disadvantage not knowing my modification:
    The affected area on my header is about 6" x 1.5" where the tube is pushed in about 3/8" along the outside edge of one header tube. I didn't collapse it, but shaped it to a flat 'D' shape in cross section, with the flat spot on the outside of the bend (which fortunately matches the profile found by Chrysler engineers in their W2 Wedge heads to be most efficient for the flow of gasses in change-of-direction - which is an arbitrary justification, but I'm partial to Chrysler engineering).

    Based on the above I decided the amount of time and effort it would take to establish the impact and then to mitigate the effects of 3/8" on one header tube.. or having a shop try new bend configurations, cutting & welding, while making sure each runner maintained the same length to the collector... or flow testing various shapes, etc. was impractical.

    ...and would distract me from enjoying the Bora back on the open road.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  12. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    OK Art. I had some SS exhaust modified a few years ago fitment issues and it was almost as expensive as the price of the exhaust to have it fixed. But this was in a place that showed rather prominently. So I completely get the expense part.

    I'm just very surprised that they didn't just bolt right in. MIE has been doing this for a while now ...

    Does the dent in that header I posted have any bearing on this?

    I'm curious because my MIE plain steel headers had no such accommodations and the one in that photo doesn't look like it was accidental?

     
  13. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    #313 71Satisfaction, Apr 8, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'll post a pic of my "dent" and, no it's not where your SS dent is. Mine is the pipe second from the right - the one that comes straight out - it hits the engine cradle frame near the engine mount.

    MIE has been completely open minded and helpful. Stuart is checking his sales and return logs for any returns for the same reason. He couldn't recall any from memory. MIE's are made to order from the same jigs they have used for a decade without change. Stuart said they sourced some of the SS headers, same as Jacques, but they came back with returns because of… fitment issues! ...so MIE stopped selling those.

    I'm willing to assume my problem falls into the "no two Bora's are built alike" category - maybe my chassis or engine cradle was welded up on a Friday.. or a Monday.. or a Wednesday after a particularly spectacular siesta for all it matters.. my alignment shop didn't report any dimensional discrepancies, so there's that to ponder.

    I am now having a lot of fun fabricating aluminum heat shields for the starter, e-brake cables, and LHM reservoir. A skill I enjoyed learning during my private airplane days,.

    Cheers,
    - Art
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  14. staatsof

    staatsof Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't buy the subframe engine variation. Low quality supplier seems more likely in all of these scenarios when it involves an "adjustment" as extensive as this.

    So the purposeful dent in the headers is still a mystery.

    I'm happy you are closer to getting back on the road!

    Yes on the e-brakes cable shields as I melted the inner nylon liner on mine getting home from Oklahoma City to SF. Ditto on the rest as well.
     
  15. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    59
    Belgium
    If I dare resurrecting this thread...
    I have read it with great interest.
    According to some people, Maserati decided to limit the revs of the 4900 at a conservative 5500 rpm redline because of a lack of knowledge at the time on how to properly balance the crankshaft, so as to avoid critical vibrations above 6000 rpm's.
    To improve the durability of the engine while avoiding the expensive manufacturing of a new optimised crankshaft, I am wondering if a "simple and cheap solution" would just be to put an harmonic damper such as those proposed by ATI.
    Did anybody pursue this route and, if so, what is the adequate model/reference of harmonic damper (in the US or in Europe)? Also would the installation of the damper be a rather bolt-on process that could be carried out without substantial work and machining/adaptation of the existing crankshaft?
     
  16. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Froggie,
    There's not much point in mounting a damper on an otherwise stock engine. The 4.9 as is functions quite well.
    If you want to raise your rev limit, and create let's say a usable extra 1000rpm, you are looking at modifications far exceeding the crank/damper, you need to flow more gasses and reduce masses. It becomes involved and expensive very quickly.
    Best,
    Jack.
     
  17. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    59
    Belgium
    Thank you for your answer.
    As most of the users of vintage Maserati's, I am not looking for revving the engine at 6500 rpm for fun or racing but more interested in its reliability and durability on the longer term if used conservatively and wisely.
    If that engine is actually good enough for such use under the redline, it's good enough for me.

    Btw, I have found a very interesting article that was referred to by Elliot in this thread but not easy to source.
    I think it's the original paper where Dr. Doll describes the weaknesses of the V8 that was put originally on the 5000 Gt and that constitutes the basis of a number of Masers of the period equipped with the 4.9 including the Bora. Here it is:
    http://norskmaseratiklubb.no/onewebmedia/Maserati%205000Trident_.pdf

    Interestingly such weaknesses as the casing design, crankshaft balancing, liners, etc. are discussed by Dr. Doll with improvements proposed by him but that are in some way disproved or minimised by Andy Heywood in a very interesting analysis.
    Enjoy the reading!
     
  18. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    255
    Thanks - both articles were very interesting.
     
  19. ciscoauto

    ciscoauto Karting

    Jan 1, 2016
    57
    Germany, Bavaria
    Full Name:
    Francois
    Some names
    Candini in Modena
    Campana in Milan (I don't know how they are organised now zith the parts in Modena?)
    Officina Valenti in Belgium
    2 in France with similar names but different peoples
    The "Garage Trident" à la Roche sur Yon
    The Garage du Trident from Mr Nallet
    and Mc Grath in England.
     
  20. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    59
    Belgium
     
  21. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    59
    Belgium
    Elliot, any progress on your project since the last update?
    I realise that it's nearly 10 years now that you started this endeavour, shows how difficult it turned out to be...
    Would be very interesting to know what is the actual potential of that 4.9 engine as optimised along your route.
    Hope you finalise your project soon
     
  22. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    284
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    Engine #2 is waiting until next year when the new dry sump system will finally begin to be manufactured. The required pump is in development, not only for me, but for a range of GM LS motors which will be mechanically driven while my system will have the pump electrically driven. When the dry sump system is complete we can assemble the motor and put it on the dyno. Based on the number we got for the original factory engine that was converted to fuel injection, I think that something well over 400 horsepower should be achieved. The numbers for engine # 1 are 357 horsepower at 5700 rpm with more probable as we could have gone up to 6000 rpm safely with the main girdle that the engine is equipped with and 344 ft. lb. of torque at 4700 rpm. This is a 4.9 liter engine with fuel injection and slightly larger intake valves and uprated camshafts from Piper (hot street) but with compression kept to 9:1 rather than anything radical. I think that 360 horsepower would be available at 6000. It's a nice improvement over what I have seen from standard engines but we have given up horsepower in the lower rpm range for improvements above 4000 rpm. A stock factory engine makes about 290 horsepower but has really good torque below 4000 rpm. I'm hoping that before May of next year the second engine will be on the dyno and we can put everything together so the car is on the road next summer. I plan to keep the car in California at our other home and to drive the wheels off of it, including a cross country trip with it to get from the Midwest to California. I'll keep everyone posted as I get more information
     
  23. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    59
    Belgium
    Thank you for your feedback.
    Good to see that you have been pursuing the efforts, these are nice results!
    Torque takes a hit, unexpectedly...
     

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