Maserati 4.9 V8 Engine

I know the complaints about the LHM but when properly looked after it works fine and yes it is not easily modulated if you do not have the chance to drive a car regularly that is equipped with the system. Interestingly enough, I believe the two Maserati racing Bora came equipped with the Citroen system. It would have been easy enough for the factory to eliminate the hydraulics when they made the racing Bora for Simone but for whatever reason they were retained. Perhaps for LeMans, the braking requirements were such that the Citroen system was a benefit. In any event, they were considered quite effective and remained in place.

Elliot Siegel[/QUOTE]

Absolutely correct particularly when you say that an untampered hydraulic system is perfectly reliable. yes it takes some getting used to but the more practice the better and these cars need to be driven. The only real flaw of hydraulics is that they don't like to sit unused.

However Johnny Simone was dead long before the Bora group 4's (or even the Bora production model) came out.

They were made for French maserati importer Jean Thepenier.

The hydraulic brakes remained on both cars from new and proved an actual advantage over the competition in testing. #3001 still has it and #3000 which I test drove for my book Maserati the Citroen years 1968-1975 and for a Classic & Sports cars December 2009 issue had it for much of its life until an owner removed it.

Walter is quite right to say that there are the technically inclined and the historically inclined. I admire the former but too many are always tinkering on their cars and not driving them: these cars need to be driven to be kept current, to be kept "happy." So keep up the good work but don't forget to take it out of the garage!

best regards,

Marc

 

Gosh, all we need now is Swain on here and we could re-hash all these issues once again.

Many of the same cast of characters are present once again! ;>))

Or you could just read all the old posts over on Yahoo.

As far as being overly complex, well compared to primative cars of that day perhaps yes but today's cars are a nightmare. Just look at what's going on with the Prius and others?

You can't bleed the brakes on a modern Ferrari without the prorietory computer. So who's overly complex?

I think seat adjustments via hydraulics was probably not so good but I'm sure the thinking went something like this.

We already have the system on the car and the weight of the small cylinder, a bit of tubing plus the switch was less expensive (then but not now!) and weighed far less than an electric solution. Same for the headlamps.

Bob S.

 

Been reading this thread with some interest as I am about to have my Khamsins engine rebuilt by Colin Clarke of Colin Clarke Engineering near Watford. When i bought my car i knew that the compressions on two cylinders were low. All the cars i had checked before i bought this one had problems.! Anyway, i did 3000 miles in mine in about a month and after a spirited 135mph drive I think i finally blew a cylinder head gasket! I am trailering my car down south shortly for the rebuild and am not adverse to some sensible mods to the engine to make her more reliable!
After the rebuild I intend to use this car as my daily driver (although i like to use all my cars regularly! 328GTS, Espada, countach QV, fiats barchetta and x1/9 plus daily drives)
I wouldnt mind increasing the bore or replacing the crank or bearing and shells or pistons with modern items. I like carbs though! The engine is naturally torquy and I like that too! It isnt a rever and that isn't an issue as the torque compensates. I drive lots of other cars and I find this one fast enough for the brakes, tyres ( now Pirelli P4000) and suspension.
Put simply, i i wanted a modern car I would buy one!
Paul
xxxx

 

How many miles or km on the car Paul?

 

I believe a lot of it has to do with the cam timing Maserati chose. Specifically, Maserati wanted engines with a lot of low-end torque. To really spin these engines for power, a different cam lobe with more duration and higher compression pistons should be used. The Thepenier Bora racing engines spin high just like other Italian racing V8 engines.

 

Haven't most of the 5000gt cranks been replaced by now?

 

No, I don`t think so!

Ciao!
Walter

 

Hello Walter,

Thank you for chiming in. I like reading your stuff and enjoyed talking with you about the vintage Maserati in the rain and fog at the last Belle Macchine event in Pennsylvania.

I'm very interested in the history and also in the mechanical side but I'm very busy running a business and there are only so many hours in a day. I tend to concentrate on exchanging information relevant to my personal cars. I also don't participate in many discussions on F-chat since too often someone knows better (or thinks he does) and I don't have time or inclination for arguments.

Regards,

Wil

 

Elliot,

I know about the yahoo groups for vintage Maserati and Lamborghini. I find them too archaic. The messages repeat over and over and photo sharing is tedious. I like this format better. I guess I'm too stupid for yahoo.

Yes, if you get some photos and information about Dr. Dolls block stiffener I'd appreciate you sharing them.

On the subject of LHM: Different strokes for different folks. A lot of the pro LHM arguments remind me of the pro venison arguments. "You just have to cook it the right way". Maybe but deer eat tree bark and pine needles and to me the meat tastes like it. I'm sorry but letting the French loose on a Maserati was a mistake. I'm not anti French. I've been to France multiple times and love the architechture, the food, the culture and many other things but generally not their cars.

Good luck with the new crankshaft. We had our last custom crank made by Moldex and have had no problems with it. At the last tear-down it still looked great.

My problem with the linkages on some of the TWM throttle bodies is the design. They would have done better, I think, if they had copied the Webber linkages. I don't like the little spring loaded stops where the carburetors connect with each other. Separate adjustable links connected to a common shaft (for one cylinder bank) is a much more positive way to make sure that all the throttles stay synchronized.

Enough. I sound like a complainer.

Wil

 

Wil,
yep, I remember with pleasure our -unfortunately- brief conversation in June 2009. Great to have you here.

I strongly assume that every contribution on this part of the Forum is highly appreciated although too many of the members are "silent" here!
If only 10 people would care more about the history of the cars from Modena rather then the mechanical aspects we could solve many typical Maserati-mysteries.

Just my 2,5 cts!

Ciao!
Walter

 

If you Bora fans or any V8 Maserati fan have not picked up a copy of the Dec 2009 Classic & Sports cars with Marc's article might I suggest you will greatly enjoy it. It should wet one's appetite for his upcoming book. The anecdote about the #3000's first track adventure WO the LHM system is humorous from today's viewpoint, not so much back then.

Bob S.

 

Marc, I apologize about the reference to Simone. Of course you are absolutely correct. I did read your article about the racing Bora and I enjoyed it very much. Not many of the people here in the States read Classic and Sports Cars but I have been a long term subscriber and look forward to receiving it every month.

The Maseratigtcars chat group is all you say Will but it serves a proper function as an entry for many who are slowly but surely getting their feet wet with a Maserati. I'm guessing that they end up finding the chat room when they Google Maserati or something similar looking for a place for information about something they have little or no experience with. They are probably not aware that Ferrari Chat has a place for Maserati owners or people interested in the marque. Since it doesn't come up when they do a search they miss the opportunity to see how good this site is. I believe both sites have their place and serve different but important functions. That's why I visit both sites regularly. I've learn a great deal from both of them, both historically and functionally.

Will, I hope you got my email that I sent your place of business. I've saved a number of Hans Doll's email to me with picture attachments and if you have a particular place you want me to forward them to let me know. I'm off to sunny but chilly Florida for a week but I will be checking email while I am wandering around.


Elliot Siegel

 

Elliot,

I understand that the yahoo forums are a great resource for owners, particularly those who like to work on their own cars. I just don't like the format. It's a personal thing, not a put-down.

You're right, I did receive an e-mail from you and got it confused in my head with the e-mailed F-chat notifications. I apologize profusely for ignoring your e-mail message and will answer it now.

Wil

 

Please allow me to ask a very basic question:

What is so inherently worng with the 4.9 crank that it cannot be corrected?

And to what RPM is it safe in stock form?

 

Elliott:

I am not worthy of being apologized to we all make mistakes and I was only correcting the point not to be pedantic but because people take what they read as gospel and it perpetrates misunderstandings. Anything I write in these forums is in a spirit of sharing the passion (what I feel is the correct attitude and mostly prevalent here) as opposed to competing about knowledge (which I feel is immature and unproductive) I never claim to know anything.

Will:

Welcome I know you are very respected for what you do so it is great to have you here.
My remarks above apply to the hydraulic comments I made a few posts earlier: they were just polite rectifications of common misperceptions: I would be totally clueless in your domain believe me

Now one other thing, again I am writing this in a polite friendly manner: it is not your fault as this particular misperception is all too common which is why I saddled myself with the masochistic goal of doing my Maserati the Citroen years book.

You wrote, after some very polite comments about liking France which are appreciated (personally I am only French at meal times or when having a drink, the rest of the time I am very Americanized trust me!): you wrote "I'm sorry but letting the French loose on a Maserati was a mistake."

Again this is not your fault at all this common complete misperception has been carried over far too much in conversations and books included.
Firstly the Orsis had no choice but to sell, de Tomaso wanted to buy in 68 but did not have a cent, Alfieri recommended that the Orsis sell to Citroen and they did.

I will cite here one of the most glaring examples of these misperceptions: a Biturbo book published by an Englishman in recent years (showing a brown Biturbo in a field on the cover) states right at the start of the text when mentioning the beginning of the Citroen era of Maserati: (I quote from memory)

"batallions of Frenchmen in suits knowing nothing about sportscars descended on Modena"

I am sure the book was very well done regarding its main subject matter but that sentence was backed by nothing in the way of research.

The Frenchmen at Maserati 1968-1975 were:

Guy Malleret, administrator
Dominique Drieux, accounting and personnel.
Thierry Lecesne, acquisitions (he left before 75, replaced by Jean Louis Laffite)
Loius Nicoletti, manufacturing.

That's it.

Hardly a batallion!?

Maserati was tiny in comparison to Citroen. there was no need to send a batallion.

I have interviewed the first three (Drieux passed away six weeks later alas but enjoyed recalling those years) and spoken to Nicoletti, aiming to interview him in the next two weeks. When I interviewed Malleret in 2002 and again 2007 for six hours I was the first one to talk to him since....1975.

All three of them as well as the Citroen oldtimers confirmed that Maserati was bought after the sole decision of Pierre Bercot then President of Citroen Automobiles. He greatly admired Maserati and Alfieri and as has been confirmed to me countless times would not have dared impose any changes other than better quality control the cash strapped Orsi had not been able to implement. Bercot was far too respectful, it is not an exageration to say that he was awed by Maserati.

What Bercot absolutely did not do was impose the hydraulics.

They were 100% the decision of Giulio Alfieri who was a Citroen fan for their innovative ideas. This is a clear proven solid fact backed up by interviews of the aforementioned.

Bercot's successor, Claude Alain Sarre confirmed to me he wanted to kill the SM before it was born as he felt it was a waste of time. Bercot then president of the holding Citroen SA and therefore above Sarre refused.

Sarre visited Maserati once. He did not impose any decisons at all because he felt this was Bercot's toy. He could'nt have cared less about these few dozen expensive cars, he had to deal with the production issues of the major car manufacturer he ran.

Then Sarre quit as he did not feel free to do what he wanted, did not likl the direction Citroen was taking and his successors Rollier and Ravenel did not "force changes" either. These were very difficult times for Citroen -as demostrated by the quick succession of CEO's- about to go bust and be absorbed by Peugeot at the request of French President Charles de Gaulle who did not want Fiat to buy Citroen.

So Citroen did not tamper with Maserati one single iota. They had more important things to worry about than any "evil sinister plot to debase the spirit fo what a Maserati GT car should be."

All they did beyond quality control was to organize the company properly lower the working hours and retain more personel.

The 1973 energy crisis as is well known was an economic tsunami for the sports car GT car industry and for the Citroen Maserati pairing was not survivable with the cards that were on the table.

Anyway I mention this respectfully to give a token of just how little research had been done on that era. Food for thought.

Thanks Bob and Will for the kind words about the Bora GR4 article

best regards,

Marc

 

I think it has done about 40,000 miles now

Writing this form office and car at home!

The car lay hardly used for a while. I can't find a leak in the coolant system and the last time i used the car it was using a lot of water and started running hot. So since then have not being using her although the weather here in Scotland has been terrible with lots of salt on road so wouldnt use her in that.

Would need a full leakage/clyinder test to confirm but pretty certian and it would fit in with lowish compression on mainly one cylinder when i bought her. Never smoked or burned much oil but water consumption was moderate then high after the very high speed run. Am pretty confident when running properly they can be genuine 140mph cruising cars.

After chaging plugs, filters/ exhausts etc the car was running so well but any 8/12 can run well with one or two cylinders slightly below par. Can't take the risk of driving her to London again so may as well just get the job done completley and well.

Spoke to Colin Clarke about this thread and ideas. In general he favours rebuilding as was and possibly using modern pistons.

Am not sure how a modern water pump could fit into the complex system that is used on these cars?

How would it work?

I can see the advantage of a modern high capacity radiator with the poor air flow on the Khamsin. Is there any ones that drop in?

Does anyone make a new lighter crank with bearings and shells? If so whom , where and for how much! Is it a drop in or anything need modified?

Likewise for the pistons and rods? Which ones from where and how much? I appreciate we will need to pull the engine to bits and see if there is wear and if it needs slightly rebored but doubt it as 6 compressions were very good

If the head gaskets were poor I assume there are good modern ones for the car?

Any other quick fixes, cross parts or recomendations? I respect the thought of the OP and the time taken and research done by him, but am not going that far. Simply a rebuild hopefully with minimum change and expense!

I was quoted £25,000 by Mcgraths for the work which included £12000 for parts! I couldnt quite see this and hope my bill form Colin will be about a third of this!

Paul




Otherwise the car is very nice with a few problems. The idea is to sort everything and be left with an exceptional car which will then be used as it was intended.

 

The reason I asked is that these engines can run to 100K miles and do just fine. You might just need head gaskets and possibly a valve job. I know that so often people want to do a full rebuild. It also depends on whether there's damage from water leaking.

Those cost figures are not something I'd pursue. I know people get their engines rebuilt for a lot less than that. I have a friend who just did his 4.2L Indy with new very short skirt pistons. His liners were fine as were his bearings and I think his was under $4K US.

Keep shopping.

Bob S.

 

This post is more than just food for thought, it's a five star meal in the reality of how the products that fascinate us actually come into existence and fall into decline.

Anyone who has spent time observing large corporations in action should be able to detect the clear, fresh aroma of truth in Marc's account. These cars are the result of a fascinating combination of egotism, imagination and economic reality.

Bravo to Marc for making the effort to roll back the mysteries. I think it greatly enhances our enjoyment of the enduring tangible results (i.e. the cars).

Very much hoping there will be a 'prequel' on the Maserati brothers-to-Orsi era that resulted in variants of the A6.

Don

 

.....!!!!!

Ciao!
Walter

 

Classic & Sportscars is a great magazine but I presently don't have a subscription (boxes of old issues). Unfortunately I have reading over-load already but I'd love to see the article. Is it possible to read old Classic & Sportscars articles on-line?

 

Hello Marc,

Thank you for the welcome.

If you are of French origin I certainly didn't intend to step on any toes. I like most things French (especially the TGV high speed trains) and have met many very nice people there. It is true that people in Paris can be a bit brusque but so can New Yorkers and everybody in other regions of France complains about the Parisienes.

I don't believe there was any kind of "sinister evil plot" on Citroen's part to do harm to Maserati (and understand about the financial pressures). For that matter, De Tomaso probably did more harm with the Bi-turbo cars and their variants. I do think that Citroen's design influence was not helpful for the Maserati brand however. Post WW II French automobile design, and particularly Citroen, are just miles apart from Italian car design of the same eras (I suppose you could also say that big corporations swallowing smaller manufacturers usually doesn't work - look at what Chrysler and Maserati accomplished). It's not just the hydraulics I have issues with. How about single spoke steering wheels and plastic gauge binnacles that look like they're straight off the Citroen corporate shelves?

Anyway, the above is just my opinion and no harm meant.

By the way: Have you ever parked your Khamsin next to a Ferrari 308GT4? They are both Bertone designs from the same era and the family resemblance is uncanny.

Regards,

Wil

 

Did YOU ever park a Khamsin next to a 308GT4? One of the things you would notice might be the different engine location! And a zillion other things.

No offense, Will!

By the way I saw your name and thought "another Dutchman", but not so apparently; maybe some Dutch origins in the distant past?

 

I agree with you Will. It's several design elements that are similar between the two cars, and it was not just Bertone design from the same era, but the same designer, Marcello Gandini. He may be the greatest designer ever, but some of his work will need some time to grow on you.

 

I'm deeply offended!

No kidding! the engines are at opposite ends and don't even point in the same direction but park the two cars together and you'll see what I mean.

As far as the name goes: We screwed the natives out of this part of the country before the English did (and then we shipped slaves over from Africa).

 

My comment wasn't meant as a slight. One day, years ago, I had both cars parked next to each other and the similarity in body designs just hit me.