Maserati 4.9 V8 Engine

Enjoying the updates to and I appreciate the approach. I have one car QPIII that I am currently driving as virtually a daily driver and, as I have been writing on my thread, I would do a series of modest upgrades while preserving originality.

PS I have been offered another QP III standard 5 speed from South Africa. I can get it landed in the UK for around £5000. Problem is there is some modest rust on the window I am told. I need to get photos and a survey etc but its fate otherwise is to have the motor pulled for racing! I know there were some of you looking for a 5 speed Euro version. I have 2 QPIIIs but dont need a third. HOWEVER the ZF is almost worth the price of the car. Ciao

 

It fascinates me that Webers have this reputation of going out of tune. This is actually impossible. The most that can happen is jets get blocked with dirt, thus a quick blow out once a year is all that is required, and should not be required for a road car with proper fuel filters and air filters.

Tuning a Weber carb required adjusting mixture screws, they cannot turn themselves and there are thousands of cars driving all over the world that have not needed more than a normal tune every normal service, which probably means no change to carbs just new plugs and points and timing checked.

I own an Alfa Romeo and my carbs have never gone out of tune ... but I used to have a neighbour that liked to fiddle with his carb adjustment, so yeah his carbs went out of tune .

But yes fuel injection, or it's computer, do make driving a car easier, thanks to perfect mixture when the engine is cold, etc. I do feel for Weber for this completely unfair reputation they have .
Pete

 

I agree with you Pete except ... I think the Bora's setup is just fine but as it heats up anyone with a sensitive feel for how an engine is running will detect the changes of the system going in and out of perfect tune just a bit depending on the conditions. That's normal. It's a lot more prevalent on my Espada which has a much fussier and more sensitive linkage than the Bora. Also, older unattended to carbs can have floats that stick etc. and these have led to some horiffiic car fires. The carb on my 84 Biturbo with it's in a pressurized box configuration has been the model of reliability in the 25 years I've owned it. I've rebuilt it once in that time just as a precaution. I have zero complaints. So I think if you get them setup and are sensible about watching for any danger signals over the years they are remarkably reliable. At least they have been for me on the Bora and Biturbo. The 6 DCOEs on the Espada have been a chore thus far but when I got the car they had been badly neglected.

There are plenty of guys who can tune highly modified engines to run well with changes to the Webers but you're never going to get the same level of driveability as with a well designed FI system. But so what? It's all a part of the vintage car experience isn't it? I must remind myself of that the next time I get vapor locked on a 100+ day in the blazing sun.

Bob S.

 

Elliot,
any photos of you together with your first 2 Boras available?

Ciao!
Walter

 

Did you have a red or yellow one? I think this source came up before, maybe in the Khamsin thread from the '76 show, but sort of neat to see the pair at the 1974 Chicago auto show.

http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/assets/1/timeline/3507CA81DE3342FE85B2C68A2F7E87FC.jpg

 

Sounds like the Bora suffers from under bonnet heat issues, like my fathers Jensen Intercepter used to. I wonder if a small fan sucking air out of the engine bay would improve things?

Everytime I start my modern car I respect fuel injection too .
Pete

 

Oh yes it does! On hot days you eventually get heat soak of everything back there and there's a considerable unibody mass as well as the sub-frame that can soak it up and dish it out!

We should have a pizza oven contest with Boras someday.

Oh a number of us have been through various scenarios about fixing this (short of visible mods) and I thought about a row of fans along the inside rear of the hatch blowing up might help, but at speed what would happen? Perhaps with an extraction vent over the top but that's pretty dman visible.

We need a Bora owner with access to a wind tunnel! Don't laugh. I met a guy at the Ely Silver State who ran heavily modified Panteras and he claimed he had just that sort of access as a result of a NASA contract he had. So it could happen ...

When I watch that video of the Bora we were's driving in that race go by at 130+mph and observe the rear way up in the air I'm just not sure a set of fans would help when you're pushing it real hard. Of course a lot guys will never do that but even just driving it around in mildly spirited manner during the summer in 85+F temps it eventually heat soaks.

It will be interesting to see how Elliot fares with the heat issue once he has all his mods finished. He's done a few things to help the situation but I'm not aware of any of them that help with air exiting the engine compartment except maybe the exhaust mods? Elliot?

 

Nice picture...

 

Talking about wind tunnel testing reminds me of a test I did with a friend of mind who has a Bora. We attached some tuffs of yarn along the side window and the vertical rear half of the Bora to see if there was disruption of the air flow over the vertical back side of the car. It an old trick I used to do on jibs to check laminar flow over the sail when I was active racing my sailboats. At 70 mph the tuffs laid flat over the entire area we tested. I was following in a chase car while my friend did the driving in the Bora. It was a country road in central Illinois. We didn't test to see if the shark gills help to extract air. I suppose next summer we should do the test again and see if any air is being extracted by the design of the shark gills. If not, perhaps replacing them with something else would help get some air out of the engine compartment to cool it and to lower the air pressure inside the compartment at the same time. Does anyone have any thoughts on that as it seems we are all in agreement that something has to be done to get cooler air into the engine compartment and to get air out of it.

I don't think that the 4.9 engine runs inherently hot. Have some of the other Maserati designs had that problem with the engine in the front or is it mostly due to the mid engine design of the Bora?


Elliot Siegel

 

Hi Elliot,
please look to my previous request. Thanks.....

Ciao!
Walter

 

Hmmm, your comments that the crank needed to be redesigned contradicts a post a few below yours:

I don't consider the addition of a harmonic damper as a redesign of a crank myself. I also can't believe that Maserati were unable to solve this problem. Possibly did not want to due to lack of cash ... ?. Engineers also went from one company to the next and as you say there were plenty of American engines to study ...
Pete

 

Hi All I couldnt get a response on the KHAMSIN thread so I thought I would ask the question here.
From my understanding AGIP is no more.
It was hard to get in Australia so I gave up using it in favor of local oils.

Recently I have discovered that the new variety of oils arnt really suited to the older engines.
The New oils have dispersants and not Detergents, and are of a much lighter rating.
That aside I am curious to explore what people are using and for why?

Graeme

 

They are alive and well in the US. http://www.americanagip.com/

 

No problem getting AGIP oils in Norway where I live. Their Sint 2000 is still available, although now as a 10w-40. I have used AGIP Supermotoroil 20w-50 on my Merak for several years now, and have nothing to complain about so far. The car is garaged, never driven in the winter, and the oil changed roughly every 2000 kms.

Cheers,
Gabriel

 

Very true, many owners of older cars do not realize that motor oils from all major suppliers have been reformulated for compatibility with modern engines and catalysts. In particular the zinc anti-wear compound ZDDP has been reduced. The name on the outside of the oil can might be the same as long ago, but what's inside is very different.

In the US we have Brad Penn (http://www.bradpennracing.com/), which now operates the refinery that historically produced the highly-regarded Kendall "green" oil. They make a blended dino/synthetic motor oil that is specifically formulated for vintage car engines. I know of no comparable product, and I use nothing else in my older cars.

Their website says that it's distributed in Australia by a firm in Sydney. In the US the price is not much different from modern oils, although shipping can be expensive if it's not locally available.

Don

 

Graeme,

Most motor oils made for diesel engines still have the needed aditives for older engines. We use Agip All-Guard Diesel Motor Oil in a lot of older engines but Shell Rotra Diesel Motor Oil and similar products will work too.

Wil

 

Thanks guys an Interesting discussion.
I have a good friend who is patroliem engineer for a local petrol compay.

He explained to me that for new engines to meet the current polution regs oils needed to get rid of the ask content, which is related to detergents and now oils use dispersants.
And this information agrees with what said here.
There is a Halvaline synthetic 10w-40 blend with a high ash content.

Does any one have any tech spec's on Agip. I have looked for it but it doesnt appear on the websites I have found.

Graeme

 

I'm slowly climbing the Maserati Ladder, and am very intreged with the V8s. I have been most motivated by Wil de Groot's Scratch built Roadster project, and have fallen in love with the A6GCS PF Coupes.
Recently, I have acquired an '80 QP III as a donor car, for this project; same as what Wil started with. I'll try and stay out of the way of this great thread here, but have a few beginner questions that may hopefully spark this thread back into action;
Can someone chronicle the basic evolution of the V8s? I understand the 5000 GT were a race derivative, that were not succesful? What is the difference between the 4.7 and the various 4.9s? Is the QP V8 the same as the Bora V8? Does the QP V8 suffer from all the maladies of previous V8s? Sorry for these mundane, beginner questions, but any info or reference direction would be most appreciated.
How is this subject engine shaping up anyway?
All ears, RF.

 

I'd suggest that you cast a much wider net than Ferrarichat in order to learn about the V8 Maserati cars. Some people on here are trying to improve the V8 in very specific and expensive ways. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Old V8 Maserati engine if you use it as originally directed by the factory. It's not a high reving engine but many of then run for beyond 100,000 miles without a rebuild.

 

I wouldn't say that at all. The 450S was a very successful engine. It was one bad weekend in Caracas away from winning the World Sports Car Championship.

The car was the fastest car of its era, the engine itself had very few problems, it was often other things that would DNF a car. The old saying was, if it didn't break, it won!

 

Thanks Staatsof,
I'm on the ************ Forum, and the Yahoo Group, plus a member of the MEI. This Ferrari Chat Forum seems to be the most active though. Looking for more research avenues, and/or advice for further learning on the V8s.
Thanks, RF

'61 3500 GT
2- '33 Fords
2-'51 Mercs
'37 Cord
'67 Silver Shadow
35 Indian Motorcycles
A6GCS PF project

 

Nice collection of vehicles.

Yeah, the vintage Maserati forum discussion got kind of fractured a few years back so it's a bit spread out now. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on here though.

 

Can someone chronicle the basic evolution of the V8s?
I understand the 5000 GT were a race derivative, that were not succesful?
Not true. It was a completely different/new engine with chains. The father of the Mexico 4.2 V8, but still much different.

What is the difference between the 4.7 and the various 4.9s?
there were wet sump and dry sumps 4.7 & 4.9's.

Is the QP V8 the same as the Bora V8?
Assuming you mean the QP III 4.9? If so NO, not even close.

Does the QP V8 suffer from all the maladies of previous V8s?
Suffer? don't know about suffering? These are very much bullet proof engines.

Sorry for these mundane, beginner questions, but any info or reference direction would be most appreciated. We were all beginers.

How is this subject engine shaping up anyway?
Ciao,
FGM

 

As FGM said, the USA 4.9 from the qIII is very different from the rest..... It was probably made to mate with the Mopar 727 transmission in mind. Wonder if the V8 from the 5sp QIII is any different as far as mating possibilities as it hooked up to the ZF 5sp....

 

Hello Frank & All,
Thanks for helping me refine the mysteries. I stumbled into a very affordable QP III (US version with the 727 automatic), and thought it would be the perfect donor car for a future A6GCS PF Coupe project (albeit, not to accurate of an interpretation). Ideally I would have preferred a lower, dry-sump application, with dual ignition, but I couldn't pass this opportunity on the QP III, especially after seeing the stunning project of Wil de Groot.
So, I am still wondering if there is a reference to show the development, or family tree, evolution of the various Maser V8s? Or could someone just quickly quote the basic lineage here on the forum during this slow interval?

Many Thanks, RF.

PS, my QP III is looking great during it's tear-down, due to both headgaskets being blown on the track. What a work of art, and everything seems in tip top shape!