Maserati Classiche....

I hate this idea, I do not need Maserati to tell me I own a Maserati.

Ivan

 

Ivan, absolutely correct.

 

A ferrari that comes for sale without the Ferrari Classicche process, will lose a significant figure in value. Ferrari itsself made excellent money with their certification.
A customer of mine owned a 250GTO which was not correct in some details. He paid Ferrari S.p.A. the very nice amount of almost 650k Euro to get his car right...and sold it for almost 50m Euros 1 year later.

Maserati can not establish such a certification procedure with their GT-cars, no mater how exclusive or valuable their are for that reason:

- while Ferrari produced their own gearboxes, differentials and engines by themselve and stamped all these components with a number, Maserati bought the gearboxes for their GT-ars from ZF and the differentials from Jaguar. The engines only were produced in-house (with a number).

Interestingly ZF put always a number on their gearboxes but these numbers were not recorded in the build-sheets for the 3500GT/Sebring/Mistral at Maserati.
With the beginning of the Ghibli series Maserati changed that and recorded the ZF-number in the individual files of a car.

The 3500GT by Touring and the Sebring had both coachwork numbers. Maserati did not recorded thee numbers in their production files.

The A6G 2000 series from the 1950s came with an non-synchronised gearbox that was produced in-house. But some cars fitted with Allemano coachwork came with a synchronised ZF-gearbox. Both gearbox-versions had no number!

As of the race 1950s-cars: Ferrari and Maserati used chassis that were made by GILCO. And while the Ferrari chassis had an internal GILCO-number which was listed in their files, the chassis for Maserati had no number!

All of these aspects will not make it possible to establish a certification program that is even as precise as that of Ferrari.

 

These are very good points- the value of this service will be questionable. The Classic 911 world has gone this way in the last few years as well; it is now very difficult to get any useful info about your classic 911 without jumping through a bunch of hoops.

On another note, having recently purchased a Mexico (again), I was disappointed to not be able to get the factory info from the historical department. Like most cars imported into Australia (but not originally delivered to Australia- the number of which was very small)- my car was RHD converted (up until 15 or so years ago, this was mandatory if you wanted to drive the car, so almost all cars imported up until the 90's were converted).

Because the car is 'not original' I am unable to receive any of the factory build sheet information. This is a real shame, as I plan to be the custodian of this car for the rest of my years, and would love to have that information for when I gradually improve the car. I imagine most owners in Australia (other than those with original Australian delivered cars) would be in the same boat.

I wonder if I convert it back to LHD whether they would give me the info?

 

When Maserati jointed the internet back in the earlier 2000's They set up a website with a place to register your Maserati and get an "official" notice of some sort about your car being an official Maserati. I did that with my Bora, Ghibli Open Cup and 84 BIturbo even though they knew almost nothing about the GOC cars. Cozza send me a standard Ghibli II owners manual with a few handwritten differences noted. I got the Evoluzione installation manual with the car when I bought it from John Bookout. I scanned it, sent it to Enrico and he turned it into a PDF to send a copy to Cozza so that they'd have it in their archives. I never got anything on the GOC. That ill fated racing cup series was run by Adolfo Orsi and the modifications were handled by an outfit who normally race prepped Alfas ... the results weren't so great ... The second year modifications were via a kit to be installed by the owners. That too had issues. Interestingly when I contacted the Alfa outfit they had all the pieces taken out of the original stock cars that were supposed to be put back if the owners wanted.

I wonder if my cars are still in their database? Maybe the Bora?

I just checked and noticed that their website is down ... LOL ... Still the Rodney Dangerfield of Italian exotics ....

For our foreign friends ...

 

Hi, this is really strange. How would they know that your car is not original anymore? On the contrary, it's in Maserati's interest to provide information about original details for the owner to restore it correctly. This is the first time I heard that this happened, and I have seen a lot of documentation by Maserati ( I am the registrar for the 107 Quattroporte: www.tipo107.com. Can you post the original response of Fabio Collina in this matter?

 

Well, they asked for a series of photos of the car; interior, exterior, chassis and engine numbers etc- all of which I provided.

After seeing that the steering had been converted to RHD (as would have been mandatory in Australia when the car was imported), it was then determined because the car is no longer original, the historical information could not be provided. Quote from the email below.

" I’m sorry to say that, due to our internal Policy, we can’t supply any historical documentation reproduction if the car is supposed to be not totally in compliance with the original specifications.
Thanks for your kind understanding."

To me, this is very disappointing- as the person who will now look after this car for many decades, I would love to have this important information.

 

Strange and disappointing indeed.
Because, as said by alfieri107, it renders the restoration of the car in its original condition more difficult.

I can unfortunately confirm that the historical department requests pictures of the car and all the identification numbers, as per the message received from Fabio Collina when I asked factory info for my Indy in 2017:

I would like to inform you that our Historical Documentation is dedicated to the actual Owners of Maserati classic vehicles exclusively.
When purchased the vehicle, in order to start the procedure we kindly need to receive from you pictures of the car (exterior/interior), pictures of the identification labels and (important) the picture of the chassis number stamped on the frame and of the engine number stamped on the engine block. Please refer to the attachments to easily find the requested numbers.
Once received ALL the requested pictures, I'll be able to check in our Historical Archive about the availability of historical documents for your car (please confirm the ownership of the vehicle, thanks).

 

This numbers stuff really is over the top. Lots of manufacturers used transmissions and differentials from other manufacturers back then especially the smaller companies. In the case of Lamborghini the early 350 GTs didn't have an in house transmission and once Lamborghini did start making their own I can't say the front engine cars were the better for that. There are numerous issues with them now which make them a more difficult car to service than if they had a more widely produced ZF box . The Miura one could understand as it was for a very unique design. The Countach has a similar issue. But no one is going to shoe horn an incorrect ZF transaxle in to either of those cars. Many Miuras have had the split sump modification made and for good reasons. Technically all of those high priced collector cars are non original and should be less desirable. Some of these categorizing techniques into original and non original seem absurd to me. Things like obsessions with "matching numbers". I think collectors have been brainwashed into believing this is so important. It's a zealotry really. If there is the wrong type of engine, gearbox or something significant then perhaps but even the manufacturers themselves would substitute types of engines as a way to improve the car when customers asked them to repair or upgrade the car. I know Lamborgini did this with 350 GTs getting the 400 engines. Their record keeping about such things is often abysmal. So what. Everyone can easily spot when an American big block is stuffed in a car or has a Muncie 4 speed substituted for the original transmission. For cars that actually raced it's much worse and tracing how a car's been modified over the years can be an arduous and terribly argumentative process. For the production GT cars I think this is all just silly stuff. Y'all are being taken for a ride by the snobbery of this crap. For something like 5000 GT well OK and I bet lots of substitutions were made on those too as Maserati learned about making road cars.

Collectors are doing this to themselves by insisting upon some of this silliness.

I know of one of the silliest examples I came across in the Biturbo world. This guy ended up getting a VERY low mileage 85 Biturbo E model which was something Qvale cobbled together to improve sales. I have the post purchase equivalent that still runs quite nicely but it took a LOT of modification to that car to make a decent reliable car. Y'all know all the Biturbo stories. They'll never be valuable collector cars anyway. But this guy insisted upon keeping everything original. It came with it's own special model number identifier on the dash! And yet wanted help fixing the things that didn't work properly. Myself and plenty of others tried to help him out especially when it came to the destructive emissions system on those cars. We had 30 years of experience with them, much of it well documented but he wanted to preserve or at least save everything so that the car could be sold as original. He was an academic or engineer of some sort so we went off on side tracks quite a bit of dissecting the very flawed systems on that terribly under engineered car. The point here is his obsession with so called originality. I don't know if he ever really got the car running adequately as after about a year of a committed struggle to make it right he unloaded it along with his parts car.

It's sad to see these fortress walls of manufacturer snobbery being erected instead of helping the enthusiast nuts like us who want to keep the cars running and in use. I prefer cars that get used as opposed to occupying a spot in a museum and never get sorted.

When it comes to the factory's efforts about the old cars it's always been about what's in it for them as they are hopefully on going concern. They play nice when it suits their goals and not yours. I liked it more when it wasn't so formalized into all of this BS.

 

So what happens to all those USA Khamsins that had the bumpers converted? Are those cars non-original and cannot be "classiche" certified? Mike D may have the last laugh after all.

Ivan

 

Not really ...

Boras too!

Oh there's just so many things like that.
I think when it comes right down to it unless you have a very original car Like your Bora it's pretty hard to be totally original because they didn't build them all that well and people always clean up poor workmanship and mechanical foibles.

Maybe they'll be more reasonable than we fear. But we've all heard the extreme stories mostly for other marques over the years.

 

Understand you totally....but its not my thinking -- its the market that proved Ferrari right. No matter if silly or not. The market does not care what you and I are thinking. In the moment a car is for sale and the numbers are not correct...the asking price goes south...
I did not mention Lamborghini or all the others.

 

If a Khamsin or Bora was delivered new to the USA it had to match the US-rules that required these silly bumpers. Furthermore the typo "US" are stamped in the frame, clearly seperating these cars from the EU-cars. If the car was some years ago or recently modified to EU-specs then its not original anymore. Its as simply as that! Sorry to say, but I mentioned this about 10+ years ago on these esteemed forum.
I brokered 2 EU-Khamsin in the past 3 months and both customers clearly asked for European cars.....

 

I guess what I'm saying is that we've all been propagandized/conditioned into this line of thinking. The market ... ah yes the market. When you constantly have concours judges and brokers trying to distinguish one car as better than another they begin to obsess on what ever they can latch on to do so. I've listened to some very big restorers talk a friend of mine into spending $25k on a very minor piece of convertible trim but then also a whole new top for his phaeton because it would no longer fit and he was already $300k underwater on the car worth no more than $250K tops! All the crazy behavior at auctions has an effect on all of this as well.

I don't think there's any undoing any of it now.

 

Oh I know you have but let me ask you this , Mark too ... Two USA Khamsins side by side, both beautifully restored but one has the European bumpers and the other has the USA bumpers plus all the USA emissions crap which is impossible to run which one will fetch more money?

 

If the owners of the cars are only in for the money that they can make by being "original" then that's fine for them. On the other hand, for those who want to enjoy the experience of not only owning the cars but using them regularly, do what you need to do to enjoy your vehicle and forget the profit part of the equation. Far too many cars are garage queens. Just go back to the vintage race cars that were continually modified during their lives. When you restore some of these multi-million dollar cars what period do you pick? Out the door from the factory or some other period? Frankly, it's all bullish-t, particularly if your real interest is to drive and have fun with your cars.

 

I think the issue is whether Maserati is taking a new stance will be less than helpful those who don't adhere to strict originality.

 

For sure the EU-converted car because it looked like designed by Gandini. But..again: if an originally US-Khamsin that had been converted to EU-specs would come to auction I am pretty sure it will not match the price figure than its EU-rival. And don`t mention the original US-specs car...
And when the EU-car has got Maserati-"certification" and the converted US-car not then take your conclusions.

Market "rules" are market rules...no matter if we like them or not!

 

The very "original" Ferrari 250 Breadvan is (or was?)...according Ferrari Classiche...a non original car! This was discussed back and forth in the Ferrari section here. I would say that is original because the modification to a new body was done in period and not during the last 15 years.
I am currently supervising the restoration of a "not-so-good" 300S. The owner has so much money he could buy all (!) of them. But he is a vivid racer and want to win. So we get the car visually back to its original specs but with an original (!) body coming from a different later car. Would it be accepted by Maserati.....?

 

All I can say to owners of US-cars that were converted to EU-specs: enjoy your car, drive the hell out of it! But be realistic in the moment you want to sell it...

 

All this is ONLY about the money. Maserati desperately needs funds, and their intent is to make Classiche into a profit center just like Ferrari Classiche. Once Cozza leaves the scene, there will be nobody who remembers how the cars were built, just like the situation at Ferrari. As for the added value of a Classiche certified car, that is still dubious. Without a doubt, new players in the market will pay some attention to the certification. However, the more valuable the car, the less importance it has. A 250 GTO or a Birdcage has the same value in the market whether certified or not. A certification is not going to add much value to a $15-50 million car. The buyers in this segment of the market know how to get the IMPORTANT research done and whom to rely on for ACCURATE INFORMATION. While some major auction houses try to push the certification importance, others do not, stating they can get the seller just as much money for a good car without having to go through the hassles. I have been involved with the certification process with a number of Ferrari's and it is just a nightmare. Stupid sums of money spent to CORRECT items that were correct in the first place, but Classiche "rules" they are not right. Historical evidence is routinely ignored and it is their way or the highway. Not a good scene.

 

Two US Khamsins, both equally nicely restored and priced the same. One still has the US bumpers and side markets, and has a Maserati Classiche certification. The other has been fully converted to EU specs and therefore will not qualify for Classiche certification. Which one would you buy?
The me the answer is very simple .... buy the converted car and ignore the Classiche paperwork.

Ivan

 

I was away at the 500 Ferraris against cancer event this weekend without my computer -a wonderful break- and am now busy writing two event articles. I will respond to this thread and some alarmist comments tomorrow. It's not all black and white, good or bad.

 

OK, but you also contacted Ferrari Classiche for their certification. H.I.`s 250GTO could NOT be sold without that document...! Same with the C.G.`s GTO that went to the US 2 years ago!
And the Classiche department at Ferrari is full of cars over (!) $15-50 million cars (I saw 250LM and 375, 250MM etc.)