Maserati Ghibli (1966 - 1973)

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by miuras, Feb 27, 2007.

  1. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Mark Oliver
    I thought they were supposed to be black Julian. I didn't have one (surprise! ) so I bought one as in your picture. Used in Alfa 2600 too IIRC. Maybe I need paint stripper!

    Best regards.

    Mark.
     
  2. johnei

    johnei Formula 3
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    Mar 22, 2006
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    A neat black Ghibli and a Lotus Elan parked side-by-side at a recent CSRG event at Sonoma Raceway
    photo on Flickr
    https://flic.kr/p/21kqsXs
     
  3. lussoman

    lussoman Karting

    Sep 7, 2008
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    That is my car , a 1969 chassis number 1386. I race my 1969 Brabham formula B car in CSRG
    Here is the car at Concorso Italiano Image Unavailable, Please Login
    It was a really fun summer!.
     
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  4. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    And that's my Ghibli behind it .....

    Ivan
     
  5. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    Marc Sonnery
    Hello all,

    I met last Friday in Geneva with a man who has two Ghibli coupes and is seeking a spyder. He is very serious so if anyone knows of a genuine spyder (not a cut car and the history will be verified with Maserati Classiche) please let me know at my email:

    marc@marcsonneryservices.com

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
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  7. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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  8. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

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    Hi Marc,

    Thought that chassis with even or odd nembers was enough to identify original, or not ?

    Best,
     
  9. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    Hello Candide,

    I am no expert on Ghiblis because they were not part of what I had to research for my book since they date from before the 1968-75 era it covered -AND I have always felt they have received far more coverage anyway, far too much in comparison to Khamsins- but I know a few years ago in one of the Paris Retromobile auctions there was a Ghibi spyder entered and displayed...some people had doubts about it and expressed them, then at the showing the head of the auction company approached me, quite anxious, tense, and asked me if I knew Ghiblis, I answered no not particularly...and he moved on in doubt about what to do. The next day the car was not in the auction any more.

    There have been enough anomalies in chassis numbers that verifying with Maserati Classiche makes sense, particularly if I am going to have my client pay that sort of sum.
    In May Bonhams sold a Ghibli SS at the Spa auction, a car from a famous Zurich bankruptcy. Many disputed it was an SS so Bonhams asked me to get the data from Maserati Classiche. Well...lo and behold yes, despite some details usually associated with 4.7's, it was a Ghibli SS. There were lots of variations in those days, sometiems not really documented properly.

    All of the above is how things can vary aboveboard...then you have falsified chassis numbers (perhaps like that withdrawn spyder) such as we saw exactly one year ago at the Milan RM Due mille ruote action where the Khamsin as well as a couple of 250 Ferraris had tampered chassis numbers...and Ghibli spyders are certainly worth enough to catch the attention of scoundrels...

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  10. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    A few years ago I inspected a Ghibli spyder for a dealer that had bought the car at a major auction. He suspected that things were just not quite correct and called me in to verify that it was a real spyder. Winthin 5 minutes I knew that it wasn't a real spyder and then spent two hours documenting all the reasons why it wasn't. Among the many things the VIN had been restamped with an odd number to make it appear to be a real spyder.

    Ivan
     
  11. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    Ivan,

    They re-stamped too the engine ?

    And what about the documents ?

    I know someone on the French Riviera who had (still has ??) so-called Campana conversion.

    The chassis number is right for a coupé. Even number.

    But the guy obtained a French title mentionned 'CABR".

    The official abbreviation on Titles in France for ... Spiders.
     
  12. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    So, marc, and as to be clear for Ghiblis :

    Even numbers = Ghibli Coupés,

    Odd numbers = Spiders.

    AM115*120* or AM115*1234* = 4,7L

    AM115/49*1234* = SS or 4,9L or 5000

    AM115S* ... or AM115S/49*... = Spiders (4,7L or SS)

    The engine number must match the chassis number. You find it on the front left side, under the left head, @ or above the alternator. In the exact same font and size than the one stamped onto the chassis.

    But I guess that at least 50% of the cars have no more their original engine.

    Some claim having an original 5000 engine but without 49 in the chassis number. Possible, but...

    Other clue, but difficult to see when the car is completed, there's a 2 or 3 digits (the last 2 or 3 of the chassis number) on quite every chrome / polished trim. You also can find these numbers on the headlights covers, the side fender grilles... Or even at the back of the inner leather covered pannels !

    The reason why I cannot understand WHY people do not show these numbers when cars have previously completed a restoration.

    Or why they do not show the "Corsa 89" on the SS crankshaft.

    Finally, the inner engine numbers :

    - there's a 2nd and unique number on the engine. It's in a different font, but very deeply stamped. I uess very difficult to cancel and re-make. You must find this same number :

    - on the top of the block, on the front right, aside the water pump exit, near the head,

    - under the left atachment to the engine support,

    - under the sump, front left side, under the oil pump exit,

    These same numbers appear on some parts IN the engine.

    So, you can see if even the inner parts are originals.

    SS cars must have SS stamped before these numbers. (by difference for example with a 4.9 engine coming from an Indy America...).

    Anyway, any doubt ? ---> Fabio Collina.
     
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  14. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

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    Fetahers and tar is what deserve those people.
     
  15. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    Thanks for the data Candide and yes tars and feathers absolutely.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  16. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    The auction house description was that this was an original 4.7 Ghibli spyder that had its engine replaced with a 4.9 SS engine. Therefore it was being advertised as a non-matching number original spyder but with a "better" engine. The part about it having a 4.9 liter engine was true but the part of it being an original spyder was not. Due to confidentiality I cannot disclose the details (VIN, auction company name, dealer name, etc) but suffice it to say it was one of the major auction company.

    I inspected a second spyder that I was planning on buying. This one was advertised as a genuine euro Ghibli SS spyder. I walked away as I was convinced it was a fake with a restamped chassis number. It appears the restamping may have been done in Europe as the car had German data plates. I will not post the details in a public forum, contact me offline if interested.

    I do not mind cut spyders and have owned a couple of them, but it really bugs me when crooks try to pass a cut spyder for a real one. Daytona spyders started their life as a coupe and were then converted to spyders by Scaglietti. Somehow people think something similar happened with Ghiblis where Campana converted coupes to spyders. This is simply not true. Ghibli spyders were built from scratch as a spyder.

    Ivan
     
  17. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    LOL !!!
     
  18. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    Thx for the update Ivan.

    I do not ask for confidential datas.

    And do not like forge.

    Concerning an SS engine, and above all in the case described, how can you make sure it's a complete genuine one if not opened ?

    As regards Daytona spiders, there will be for ever the ones made "new" by Scaglietti, and the others.
     
  19. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    I would be curious to know how many 5000 engines are on AM115* chassis... (so, no on AM115/49).

    Being considered that some SS have had their own engine swapped as # 1974. (Its original has been found some years ago near Hamburg - Germany).
     
  20. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    The engine had an internal number that started with "00" and it was stamped with an SS coupe VIN. Those stampings I can tell were original. Is it possible to put 4.7 liter components (crank, etc) inside a 4.9 liter block?

    Ivan
     
  21. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    Ivan, Blocks are identicals since the bore is identical.

    The stroke only is different cause of a different crankshaft for the SS allowing to pass from 4.7 to 4.9.

    Besides, the 4.7 and 4.9 blocks usually bear in the catsting the ... 107 type. Isn't it ?

    Pls see pic above.

    Heads are identicals too.

    Then, theres' a difference in the heads and pistons, but common to both 4.7 and 4.9 since @ 1971.

    You can put what I would call S2 pistons into S1 blocks, not the reverse way. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    The internal number as it appears outside on an SS block :

    Here, internal number is 23xx.

    You can sse the SS before the numbers cause the block was assigned to a 4.9 crankshaft and dry sump.

    Don't know what the OA stand for.

    Besides, they only are at that place.

    Elsewhere outside the block you can read SS23xx, and inside only 23xx.

    Pls also note that it's stamped really deeply, and if you try to cancel the numbers and stamp again them, there's a high risk to cancel too the 2 other circled stamps.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

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    So I, would guess you can identify re-stamped blocks.
     
  24. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Just for completeness, I stumbled across this post from Larry Ruben from a while ago. It explains the OA prefix on the engine stamping.


    “Frank, I believe that the O and A refer to the crankshaft configuration. The O denotes a one piece rear main seal, where earlier cranks had a split seal. The A indicates the timing chain drive gear is a press fit on the front of the crank shaft, previously this gear was bolted on.
    Also, one S does refer to the 4.7L engine, but more importantly it denotes a dry sump engine. And of course, the SS in the 4.9L dry sump engine.
    Hope my memory serves me correctly,
    Larry.”


    What an amazing resource we have here!

    Best regards to all.

    Mark.
     
  25. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
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    XLNT Mark !

    However, I did not norice before that there were dry sump 4.7...
     
  26. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    I guess Bora 4.7 engines must be stamped with something else.....
    As my Ghibli engine has both a split crank seal and a bolt on chain gear, I will investigate
    What prefix denotes that configuration. Hopefully it doesn’t say OA otherwise back to the drawing board.

    Mark.
     

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