Hi Otto, Had a closer look at the pictures and to those of 004 at the time of the 1st showing: I come to the conclusion that it is not K#004 but must be another very early K, VIN unkown to me. Anybody any advise? Ciao, Bart
Hello Bart, Otto: No, no that is without a doubt 004 in the photo shown in posts 3916, 3917. 002 had an entirely different interior, 006 never existed, 008, 010 onwards have normal cockpits. The one of 004 had some detail modifications early on such as the radio and the AC controls being inverted but that is 004, don't let minor trim modifications throw you off; remember that they were still defining the definitive look of the interior so it is not unexpected that they would fuss and fiddle with trim variations. Frank fantastic find thank you for posting! Will try to get more info from Bertone. Paul glad you are enjoying your K the way it was meant to be. How bumpy were those roads? Yes one has to be delicate with the brakes but as you say you improve as the day goes. regarding rear suspension ask Andy Heywood: when I had mine it was in south Florida which has zero curvy roads all straight with 90° intersections so I had no opportunity to play and did not drive it on track it either. I drove a number of others including Marius' 008 3 times when I had it in my care in late June but they were not my car so I did not play of course. Ask Andy he will have the answers you seek. I know that according to George Perfect some UK cars which sat idel for a long time had frozen rear suspension (due to dead bushings and rust) so you might want to check yours but I am sure you do not have that problem. best regards, Marc
Hi Bart, The picture is from a french magazine called L'automobile. They have produced a special called "Salon" in 1973. It is about the Paris Motorshow. This picture, as you can see from the pdef which shows the whole page, is not labelled with the car name, so I really cannot give more info about it. I think it must be a Khamsin and many features are similar to #004. I wonder if there are any other period pictures of #004s interior to compare with. Fabio Collina writes me that #024 was on the 73 and 74 Paris Show, but I need to confirm with him if it was really already the 73 show. And #024 has the usual interior today and I doubt it had been changed. At the time, did any other prototype still exist and was shown in Paris? Which details make you think it is not #004, Bart? Best regards, Otto
Hi Marc No the rear suspension is not seized up and works. It may move a bit too much for my liking, but I know it not a sports car like the 328 or the countach. I find if you are going into a corner with high speed that if you try and brake, if i have badly misjudged then the back will be mobile! I know lots of rear car cars can be like that. It does respond well to steering inputs and can be opposite locked around corners and ail be quite stable, but I feel it goes a bit too quickly. It should be a bit more stable. Yesterday the roads varied a lot, not too bumpy on the fast bits. It is really high speed corners when going in say on a twisty road at 120km+. I know modern cars , say a 360CS could go in at 160-180km+ and brake and go round easily, but that is 30 years difference in everything: tyres, brakes. suspension; electronic traction etc. They dont compare. I just felt that upon braking in difficult conditions,that the rear seems too happy to move, needing one to go off the brakes and to steer it around. I recall LJK Setrights article on the car and he didnt seem to have these issues, although no doubt he was a much better driver than me, and a notoriously fast one! Just wonder if other owners on here notice the same? I do tend to drive my cars they way they were intended! lol I know I have to bring my old car over to you and see how it V max on the autobahn! I honestly think it will struggle beyond 150mph! anyway , you can film it! Regards Paul
Hi Paul, Very refreshing to discuss handling instead of widgets and sprockets for a change I would have a look at the back end, if you find anything amiss then you will know, however assuming it is fine it could be a matter of excessively sudden weight transfer while not braking in a straight line: I know the Scottish roads you are talking about have a pattern of not being straight then a tight curve but rather that they meander in fast sweeps leading to tighter ones hence you just aren't in a straight line when you need to brake hard for a tight one, well as you know Khamsin brakes are challenging to dose right so even though I think you are doing it far better than most I would work on your braking smoothness and two things will help; is your seat perhaps too far or too close to the pedals? Are you bracing yourself properly with your other foot? I remember letting a Ghibli owner drive my Khamsin in Fort Lauderdale and he had not braced himself with his left foot before using his right one to brake and the power of those brakes combined with the short travel and very high assistance of the pedal meant that he slid forward in his seat upon initial braking which meant that his foot applied enromous pressure and the car practiucally stood on its nose. That woke him up! After I suggested he brace himself properly with his left foot before trying again he got the hang of it driving through town. Of course it is not as easy when driving on the limit but it can still be done by a competetent driver like you. I frememebr I used to steel my left leg completely against the foot rest while being delicate as a mouse smelling a glower with the right one! Also try doing it without blipping the throttle for downshifts for a while to really concentrate on smoothness, then once you feel you have it mastered as best you can then go back to blipping. The other question is how bumpy are those roads: I have never been to Scotland but in my racing years living near Silverstone in the late 80's I traveled extensively in the UK from Cadwell Park to Brands Hatch, Castle Combe to Oulton Park, road trips into Wales just to enjoy those roads flat out and there were lots of dips and brows and bumps and puddles all of which do not help. Regarding the "Autobahn mission" you are welcome to come stay at my place in Burgundy and we can be in southern Germany in a few hours, fall, late fall is a good time for it in terms of traffic and temperatures, I can find out the best spots and we can film and compare the latin speedometer with a GPS best regards, Marc
Paul, Also take note of the rubber the K uses. It's an old-fashioned high profile tyre, same as you would find under a V-12 Jag from the era. The K uses a different design for the rear suspension which should make it track truer than the Jag set-up, but still... A 308 QV runs on low-profile modern rubber, and is tough to unsettle in fast bends. Apples and pears. That said, if you're unhappy with the performance of the rear, go through it and see if there isn't anything amiss. There are plenty spots that can create play or too much give. Of course the K rolls in corners, and it's not exactly light. There has been discussion earlier in the thread about heavier anti-roll bars, which might help.
Hello all, Absolutely valid points Jack of course. I would also look at the condition of the shocks and springs themselves. Here is another to surface, in California: AM120US1050. It is an automatic but it is also old enough to be exempt of that state's drastic emissions rules and considering there are precious few 5 speeds left in the US it is worth considering for anyone searching. The seats have been redone incorrectly but is not too offensive: I have seen a lot worse alas! Since Jerry Hathaway of SM World has done the hydraulics one can rest assured they are fully sorted. I am absolutely not involved in the sale, in fact since Mecum know about as much about Khamsins as I do about muscle cars (!) the marketing won't be too sharp: it should be cheap so don't miss their November Anaheim (California) auction! http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=AN1112-138904 best regards, Marc Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Just a note here Mark. The cutoff of 1975 for California is a fixed one. It does not keep sliding each year. The newer models will NEVER be exempt there.
Ah thanks Bob, Yes I was definitely under the impression that it was a sliding rule, pity that it isn't. Thanks for the knowledge, I edited the word now out of my post! Marc
Hi Guys thanks for the suggestions. I will have a look when I get back to the UK as one or two things needing checked on the car. Marc, the roads vary a lot but generally are quite poor in particular compared to France or Germany. I dont think that was the issue as I tend to be more careful on all old cars over bumps. I know that old 70 profile tyres will move a lot more than modern ones. It is a great feature for a smooth ride and more predictable handling. I wouldnt like to down size to say 60 as there may be too many compromises and possible problems. I changed my 308GT4 from xwx's to P6000's and it made a massive difference. But that was with larger wheels etc as found on the 328. I will keep you posted. Perhaps I could just drive the car slower! Although I don't think they are designed to go slowly! lol Paul
Marc, Just wondering about your statement on the Mecum K that it'll be cheap: It looks like a loved car to me, yes it has it faults, but the mileage isn't crazy high and at least it has lost the fed bumpers. That leaves the wrong interior and the auto trans as the most im[portant negative indicators. Why will it be cheap, and what do you think is cheap in today's market?
Hello Marc, It seems like a nice car and as you say, the reupholstery isn't too offensive. Note that the auctioneer made a mistake in the description: "421 produced". Where did they get that idea? Carmine
The biggest problem with that car, and the reason it will be cheap, is because of the transmission. The automatic in a Khamsin, and similarly in a Ghibli, is horrible. No,not the transmission. It is just a regular auto box, but it just doesn't work in a Ghibli or Khamsin. The gearing is all wrong....the feel is all wrong....nothing worse than having a sporting GT that drives like a sixties Pontiac.....Top speed is very low to get decent acceleration out of the three speed auto, and that gearing makes it buzzy and over-revved at highway speeds.....the shifting is lazy and slow....all this creates an incongruous feeling of tight suspension, brakes, and steering with vague and slow and distant shifting and control of the car's acceleration. It just feels all wrong. If you have an auto, Joe Walsh would sing his Maserati only goes 120!!!! The auto takes away 30% of the value of the car. Same is true in a Ghibli. It is a crime they ever came with automatics. Oh, some critics will say the automatics have their virtues....well yes, in a Mercedes, or other soft, touring car built for comfort and ease of use more than performance, but certainly not in Khamsin!!!!!
Well, I think you are coming across as a little harsh here but I kind of agree with you. Certainly one has greater control over a car's behavior with a manual gearbox and clutch and it's more fun to drive. In a Ghibli the auto transmission strikes me as an aberration. I roll my eyes when I see an auto Ghibli for sale and the seller says something like: "super rare automatic transmission", as if this was desirable. In the Khamsin it's a bit different. Ivan has said something to the effect that it goes well with the character of the car. I think I can agree with that sentiment, but surely it still distracts from the fun of driving the car. I am still working on my Khamsin, (not yet driving it), so I can't say for certain. Personally, I'd be happier if I had a 5 speed car. As to the behavior of the automatic as an automatic, I can't imagine that would be an issue. The Chrysler Torque-Flight 727 was one of the strongest auto's made at that time. It was used in many American muscle cars making more than 400 HP. In the USA, there are plenty of guys who know how to set these up well. Note: no offence intended to anyone with an auto trans car.
Hi Jack and all, My humble 2 Lira opinion on this car is very simple and based on two facts: firstly it is an automatic so the European buyers ready to whisk a 5 speed across the Atlantic will not bid, secondly Mecum is just not at all an auction company suited to marketing a K. I won't even try to guess a Dollar figure because it depends on who shows up to bid in person, by phone or internet... The car does look good however, has a Euro bumper conversion and appears to have been well taken care of... best regards, MS
Marc, I agree in general about the big American auction houses. They don't know what to make of these kinds of things. But I've seen 1957 Chevy BelAir's and 1969 Pontiac GTO's go for more than U$D 100K at these auctions. It would be a disappointment, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see the Khamsin go in the range of U$D 55K. Another fact is that the auction is scheduled right after the USA presidential and congressional elections. I don't know if this will make a difference in people's purchase of luxury goods. C.
I'd be shocked it it got to $55K. I'm not expecting ot seel at this level but $35K is what I'd expect to see. As Mark already mention, it's the wrong venue and even then is any Khamsin automatic worth $55K?
Bob, I already know that I did not play things well, but if you're right -- then I really got screwed. C
How many manual transmission K's are left in the US? I agree it'd be a big concession, but if I were in the US and wanted a K, this one doesn't look too bad. I've neber driven one with an auto box, and I'd immediately apply my mind to a possible conversion, but come on, 35k?
hi Jack, About as many as blonde virgins in a village after the Vikings passed through... I counted some weeks ago 47 US K's in Europe. the majority of these being 5 speeds. I did not itemize will do so eventally but out of a 100 US 5 speeds I would say there are certainly less than 50 remaining in the US. There were 55 US automatics sold there. best regards, MS
Marc Delighted you are lowering the tone here! Lets have an agenda here? 1.No talking about trivial things 2. No posting about prices 3. No posting about values going up and down 4. No discussion on whether 'x' is more original than 'y' 5.No slagging off other peoples cars± Lets talk about: 1. How Marc knows about the lack of blonde virgins! 2. Should there be a UN commission into this problem. 3. Does Marc have a conflict of interest in chairing it. 4. Lets post about driving our cars 5. Have a prize ( possibly an introduction to a................) for who gets the V max from their car 6. A prize for the most F'cars that an owner burns up on the road! Just saying! Paul ( a non blonde)
Hi Paul and all, Glad to amuse you Paul and yes sometimes it gets too techy You have lots of err uhhh...creative ideas which may or may not have been inspired by consumption of Scottish beverage -nothing wrong with supporting your local economy- but thanks all the same: you should be a car writer it pays very poorly but you get to drive some interesting cars once in a while, I can tell from 20 years of experience Daytonafan thanks for the photos. best regards, Marc
