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Maserati Khamsin

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Maeter, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Art
    Thanks abarth,
    The pump in Mark's photo is the same pump as I find in my friend's unrestored Khamsin (see post #7587). Looking at the Khamsin Parts Catalog Table 27, the configuration of our pumps is the same as part #23, and called 'Pompa di benzina AEG' - so my assumption is our pumps are original.

    Interestingly the Bora's secondary pump (Table 27), is also the same configuration, except it's called 'Pompa di benzina secondaria tipo APG' - and the Bora has a 3-way back-check valve placed in such a way as to prevent fuel from back-feeding through the primary pump when the secondary pump is activated.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  2. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    #7602 71Satisfaction, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    ...and for a photogenic update, I got it running on a temporary fuel pump, and took my friend's Khamsin out for a short drive on Monday...

    It's a lovely thing! The ZF gear shift is so much better than the Bora.. with comfortable seat, strange throttle pedal geometry, and I love the visibility out back..

    Now that I drove it 4-5 miles, we get to experience the results of a Maserati *not* being driven nearly enough: Other new failures are showing up.. :-(

    ..LHM started leaking, then stopped. Power accessories are not reliable, need to clean the switches, etc..

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  3. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    I don't think the King filter/regulator has an impact on whether a Maserati has a fuel return line. The fuel pressure needs regulation so as not to damage the Weber's various diaphragms. The fuel goes up to the fuel rail at around 2.5psi and 'extra' fuel circulates back to the tank. Ivan suggested very intelligently, this circulation keeps the fuel cool and prevents vapor lock in very hot situations.

    My Bora has the King filter/regulator and the return line. Very hot engine bay in the Bora.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  4. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    149
    Belgium
    Saw yesterday a Bora engine being refurbished.
    It has indeed an outlet on the first banjo of the fuel rail that allows recirculating the fuel back to tank:

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    However, my Indy that has the same 4.9 engine (EU specs) and which is from 1973 did not have such an outlet on the fuel rail, so no fuel recirculation (here reassembled with new hoses after carbs reconditioning):

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    I understand that the Bora has a very hot engine bay, so more prone to possible vapor lock. Hence probably the presence of this fuel return line.
    Also I think that US Khamsin's were produced with heat exchangers to comply with the stricter emissions regulations. That produced more heating in the engine bay, so a similar reason for mounting the fuel return line.
     
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  5. 010

    010 Karting
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    May 19, 2009
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    Not related to the current and much more interesting topic but.....can anyone think of a reason I should hold onto four pristine Michelin XWX tires that have seen about 600 kms of use... but are over 30 yrs old? They look new but I would never use them for anything other that parking bumpers on the wall. They still have all of their in-between and side wall mold release rubber bits on them.. recycle them and enjoy the space.. or........?

    I am all ears...
    Richard

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  6. SMarc

    SMarc Rookie

    Mar 21, 2016
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  7. 010

    010 Karting
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    May 19, 2009
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    Richard
    And another question as i am about to have my interior redone... what is the latest thinking on product like Dynamat, etc for under the carpet backing and carpet. The intention is road and related sound quieting. My understanding is that all of these effectively become one with the car from their glue and the only way to remove it is painful scraping... any better suggestions? Or perhaps i should only put the carpet backing material and carpet (no sound butyl or other sound deadening material at all). I am not concerned with the weight it adds...but mkre from the perceived value/hassle down the road. I welcome all ideas on this. Thank you,
    Richard

    Ps. I know part of this question is to make the car more enjoyable for my wife (quieter) but don't want to spend where it will detract in anyway from the cars roots.


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  8. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Hi Richard,
    I'm of the opinion your old tires are a hazard to drive, but indeed a shame to just toss in the dustbin. They may be attractive to a person with a 'trailer queen' car that's primarily for display but not to be driven.. a museum even?

    I have used Dynamat in one of my restorations and am very happy with it. Yes it does meld itself to the surface, but FEAR NOT. For removal just refer to the following method..

    PS - I was especially pleased having added Dynamat to the inside of an otherwise 'tinny' door skin that now sounds like a vault when being shut.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
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  9. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Worked on my friend's Khamsin this morning. Reinstalled the fuel pump and 3-way valve completely, flushed some more of the old gas, put in fresh non-ethanol 91, and cleared up the power issue from the fusebox. Checked the brakes, clutch, carbs, steering system. Then spent the rest of the day driving around..

    I did not fall in love with the driving dynamics of the Khamsin, compared to my Bora.
    Some of that is probably due to my deep familiarity with the Bora... ..but still:
    - Compared to the Bora, the Khamsin's drivetrain feels overly isolated from the body. On hard accelerations, the IRS absorbs too much torque, which is released on uneven bumps. Just my subjective opinion.
    - Hard cornering over uneven surfaces broke the grip notably more than the Bora.
    - The balance of dampening or absorbing small imperfections vs small bumps vs big bumps was not equal - so grip and handling wasn't as predictable.
    Full disclosure: The tires are old, and they are those very hard Michelin XWX's. I even reduced pressure from 35Front/38Rear to 31Front/32 Rear.. maybe that was a problem.
    - Very comfortable seat.
    - Very good visibility, but why is the passenger door mirror blocked by the A-pillar.?
    - The steering sensations were OK, a little bit vague, but I like the weight of the steering effort.
    - Excellent turning radius.
    - Beautiful design.
    - Excellent finishing and details.


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  10. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Very hot fuel tank too. This factory "design" does zip to prevent vapor lock in real world conditions. I got stuck in Denver with my Bora on an early in the season, very warm spring day with a full load of winter gas in the tank. At 5000 ft elevation I had vapor lock pretty damn quick. I had to be flat bedded to a pre-planned garage. You could see the gas churning in the tank.

    I spent a lot of time trying to deal with this issue during my desert runs in the Bora. I made a stainless steel shield for the gas tank and improved the insulation behind it. I also made double walled SS shields for many critical components. I added a new one for those fuel pumps. Radiant heat from those headers is a killer. I also put slip over foam insulation on all the fuel hoses. You can get that from professional AC supply houses. Looks like hell but for the really hot weather it helps.
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Those tires suck, especially when old. Have you checked the production dates? Hopefully they're not original! :eek: Ditching the XWXs was the first huge improvement I made to my Bora.
    I tried 225/70VR15 Gatorbacks first and the car felt like it was wearing Hush Puppies, just terrible. I sold those tires to Mandarano for his QPIII. But the 235 & 245 60/VR15 XGTs were a superb tire. NLA :( Everyone was running these back then.

    I don't know what the modern production XWXs are like. Hopefully much better than the originals.

    I bet a lot of your dislike with the handling is those tires and perhaps an alignment?

    Sounds like you had fun.

    I took a friends Indy to Monterey one year for him and as soon as I left his house it felt like all 4 tries were flat spotted. I thought they'd warm up but they never did. Once I got to where I was staying, about an hour away I went to a good tire shop. The steel bands were separating from all four tires. These were a premium brand too, Michelin I think. I had to downgrade to H rated tires because that's all that was available. With new tires the car was a pleasure to drive through hills from I5 into Salinas and then Monterey.

    Talk you friend into a new set of tires SOON!

     
  12. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2006
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    Art,

    Well done on getting the car running and driving, glad you got to spend some time driving it BUT as Bob points out the car cannot possibly be right after years of unuse like that, it would need a lot more attention to be set up properly and those tires completely skewered your driving experience. Get new proper tires on that thing, verify the suspension alignment yes but equally importantly the state of the springs and shocks, sounds like they are as tired as could be expected. Those tires are dangerous so abstain from any more driving. Once the car is sorted FULLY you will not believe how great they are to drive,even though US cars are softer sprung than Euro ones. Also did the steering harden at higher speeds? If not then that needs to be sorted (see recent posts on this).

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
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  13. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
    149
    Belgium
    Though nowadays there are no good 215/70 R15 options on the table apart from these very expensive XWX's and the Vredestein Sprint Classic's in the same dimension.
    This is a real issue for all of the GT Masers of that time that was discussed many times already in this forum.
     
  14. barnfieldman

    barnfieldman Rookie

    Apr 18, 2006
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    Hi Marc,
    why do you believe US cars have different springs than Euro cars?
    Regards
    Paul
     
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  15. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Yeah tire availability has been discussed to death. The thing with the XWXs back then is that although they were a very strong tire for high speeds they were also very unforgiving in terms of handling. At least back then they were. They would break loose suddenly, rode too firmly and installers charged an extra $20 per tire because they were so hard to get on/off of a rim.

    Most people don't need V or Z rating anymore. So you can get a comfortable riding tire with the proper load rating for way less money but it won't be superb handling tire or good for 140 mph+. Might not even be H rated.

    I wish Michelin would make the XGT tires again, not concours proper but a wonderful tire for these cars. I think Avon or someone has 15" 60 series in 235 and 245. Not inexpensive though.
     
  16. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran

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    Hello Paul MM Cozza and Collina of Maserati Classiche told me so during interviews at the factory during research for my book, it is just one of a number of differences such as lower diff ratio, timing set for torque as opposed to peak power, the exhaust headers, the dashboard buzzer until LHM pressure is up, the brake light, the steering wheel and of course walrus tusk bumpers and Ralph Nader pimple sidelights on all four wings fenders as opposed to small Euro indicators just at front. I am probably forgetting something.
    Maserati knew in the US people did not drive as fast and hard as in Europe due to very low speed limits, massive police presence and differrent types of roads and driving patterns so gave the US version a more cushy ride.
    Fyi 55 automatics sold new in the US and only about 5 in ALL of Europe.
     
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  17. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    My friend says the XWX tires are original. There are no date codes at all, the rubber is very hard, on top of how hard they were as originals (I've heard the same story of the difficulty of just getting the XWX's on/off the rims when new). So, yes I'm sure the tires factored into the driving dynamics. I'm partial to the Vredestain Sport Classics myself, even though I drive on Longstone's CN12 Cinturatos - they are a bit noisy. I loved my Pirelli P4000s. I would agree, the current "tune" of the suspension isn't the type of experience I imagine Alfieri had as a goal.

    A conversation will be needed with my friend about his K.
    ... on one hand, all he wants to do is be able to start it and drive it a few days per year. He can do that if we leave it "as-is", and I'm done.
    ... on the other hand is me, whose desire is to give this K a chance at a "real" life on the road. So I advocate for significant refresh: New tires, belts, all fresh fluids, transmission & differential oil, rebuild brake calipers, and a thorough cleaning to start. Depending on how much my friends wants to invest, I'll take on the role of manager to have these services performed.

    Seeing the large gap between our positions, my quiet hope is to keep track of this K over the coming years, service it when or how my friend wants, and if all goes well, shepherd it along towards gradual improvements... and at a minimum avoid more decline - it has early stages of body rust.

    My friend just doesn't have much time for it, other than driving it when he feels like it, which apparently isn't often - he has 6-7 other, much "easier", modern exotics to enjoy. This K is like a momentary nostalgia trip I guess.

    To give the K credit, both my friend and Dave Burnham recall the last time it was serviced was about 1995. After all that time, the engine is still in near perfect tune, starts instantly, the exhaust note sounds like the compression is better than my Bora, no timing chain noise at any RPM, and the only leak it has is a weep of LHM from the front calipers.

    Cheers,
    - Art

    PS - It's my wife's favorite color too.. here is the K alongside her 1-of-96 '67 Plymouth Satellite convertible.
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  18. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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  19. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran

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    Gandini confirmed to me his starting point for the K design was the Urraco. It is even more flagrant on a Euro car and the K prototype AM120-002 destroyed in the crash test of December 73 had even more Urraco dna.

    You should really encourage your friend to get a bumper conversion done, he and his entourage would appreciate it more that way.
     
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  20. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Until someone bumps into you at a gas station. I had some moron do just that to my Bora. Zero damage but if I'd had those beautiful but puny SS bumpers on it ... You can also easily push the car around by those and not dent or damage anything. Might even be able to mount a snow plow!

    However, the Khamsin's big bumpers are a whole lot uglier than the Bora's version. Hope someone we know isn't listening ... :p
     
  21. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
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    Hello Bob / Marc...

    Well now, who could you possibly be talking about?.. Not that guy in TN who ADAMANTLY refuses
    to change his bumpers to Euro versions! Hmm … Snow plow, now that's interesting. We don't get
    much snow here in TN where I live, maybe 1 to 2 inches spread out over the winter. But it is good
    to know I might have a car I can use to clear my parking pad! Marc - was a snow plow a US option
    on K's? o_O:) I have never seen this option, but if a Ghibli can have a chop top option (if I remember
    correctly - some brochure somewhere), why not an after market snow plow for the K! ;):)

    Art - keep up the good work on your friends K....

    Mike
     
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  22. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Even without hearing it from Gandini, the Urraco DNA is indisputable - just cut at the belt line, and slide the greenhouse forward making a bigger quarter window, and Voila! = Urraco.

    Regarding the US bumpers - Yes I would convert this K in a heartbeat, as opposed to my Bora. I saw your tutorial Marc, thanks. It's all bolt-off/bolt on, and that makes the conversion most sensible. I might just make the conversion a gift to my friend for next spring, but I have not confirmed the source in CA is still producing the kits. In the meantime the good news is, having washed the Khamsin yesterday, I can report its US bumpers are the most perfect I've ever seen.. I struggled to find a single flaw (and I want the rear for my Bora).

    The K makes a really good grocery-getter too..

    Ciao, - Art
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  23. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Oops ... :p

     
  24. 010

    010 Karting
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    Two notes. One. For anyone considering the kit to convert to Euro bumpers from the guy in the US. Please be aware and tell him.... Wrap every piece seperately VERY well. My experience was that although a very nice guy he has unrealistic expectations when asking a courier to carry the box in a certain orientation. In my case th bumpers were scratched.. the plexi was deeply scratched and it was apparently the couriers fault. When my shop received the parts they called me immediately and said.. the shipper did not wrap anything well enough... I have nothing against him. But terrible shipping that I ended up giving up on... .. the courier also said it was not well shipped..... A shame

    My car was already euro but I wanted a matched and undamaged bumper (mine which I still have had a big gash on one...no idea how it happened.).

    The new bumpers I guess would fit a US car ... But my shop has to combine old and new parts.. this was fine.. but cost me more in wasted parts...

    Lastly. I had my shop sand the bumper s down and repaint in a much less glossy (read as shiny plastic) grey and black. Now they look real. Yes the shape seems right... But I was disappointed with the extra I paid to finish them myself properly. And throw away the plexi... Vendor die not think it was his fault shipping damages occured. Oh well. They do look good now. Be aware.

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  25. 010

    010 Karting
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    Note two.. point taken on the trailer queen tires.. thank you Art. Anyone interested in a nearly new set without damages. They look good but should not be driver purely due to age
    They are unmounted and ready to go.
    Richard.
    (Toronto, Canada)


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