News

Maserati Khamsin

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Maeter, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    2,710
    Hershey, PA
    truth be told outside of the MC12, Maserati has never built a sports car for the road. They have always been Grand Touring cars.
     
    Nembo1777 likes this.
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. MK1044

    MK1044 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2011
    16,859
    NYC USA
    Full Name:
    Melvin Junko
    A friend in the transmission repair business looked at my 1975 K and immediately identified the transmission as a "Ford small case Cruise-O-Matic". But I believe they were manufactured by Borg-Warner.
     
  4. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    I looked at some of my K brochures yesterday but they did not identify the auto box provided...and some of them did not mention the automatic option at all. Most stated right hand drive and auto as options, that's it. One confused journalist even described the autobox as being a ZF! A UK article, actually several, with the early car we recently determined to be 303 mention several times that Borg Warner was the auto box supplier. That car had the narrow slit and dainty lever as shown in recent posts.
    I need to work but will look later at test drive articles featuring the subsequent version.
     
    Michel de Wildt and MK1044 like this.
  5. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    Couldn't wait of course, later articles with the T bar lever also describe it as Borg Warner so they must have been two successive versions.
     
    MK1044 likes this.
  6. khamsin433

    khamsin433 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2009
    281
    Birmingham, UK
    Full Name:
    Balbir
    It’s listed as a Borg Warner AS6 8N with S11 converter in the handbook. No idea what is but in case it helps anyone.

    Bal
     
    Nembo1777 likes this.
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    502
    From C&SC, March 1989, (issue with road test of #425 "PET2X"), this advert at page 42.

    Car on the left probably #381, but on the right I'm not sure, #413 maybe?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Nembo1777 likes this.
  9. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    Hello AMLC,

    I think you are correct for the one on the left, but 413 was always dark blue so I think -not certain since there were lots of silver cars- it could be 431, here is what I have, note what Cozza states: born silver with dark blue interior. I have no photos of this car but may have seen it at the Oldtimer GP at the Nurbugring in the eighties, I remember distinctly looking at a right hand drive silver K from the UK with added lights parked near the entrance. I have slides somewhere but they are horrible.

    K 431

    Heywood data

    MYX 175 X

    Silver black manual

    Bartol Brown

    Not original color was white for a number of years. Was previously registred 1 BHK.

    Cozza says made in May 1980. Was silver with blue. Imported through Motorpark West Midlands for Mister Perry Daneford of Blackpool.
     
    khamsin433 likes this.
  10. rga

    rga Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2012
    270
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Roger the Dodger
    Hello Marc
    Hello AMLC

    could easily be mistaken with 331 as that one is also RHD silver / blue, but obviously that is a 1976 car;

    below some photos of what I think is 431 with the date when the ads were placed,
    so then the car would have been silver in March 1989, but already resprayed white in Nov 1989 and still so in April 1990

    Best, Roger

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    khamsin433 likes this.
  11. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    Hello Roger,

    The number plate in the Heathmans ad matches that of 431 in the notes I was given years ago by Andy Heywood so you guessed right!

    While surprising it is not the only car to have had three successive colors; 409 comes to mind as well.
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    502
    Well if the silver car in March 1989 is indeed #431 then this very nice silver, two owner, car changed a lot (painted white including the wheels apparently, no extra headlights anymore, other location for licence plate) in the eight months between March and November 1989.

    Still this is possible of course. The only other option for a 1980 silver-blue manual RHD that I can think of is that it is #407 (I have nothing on #407).
     
    Nembo1777 likes this.
  14. rga

    rga Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2012
    270
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Roger the Dodger
    I have nothing on 407 either, but then RHD cars can be all over the world...
     
  15. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    407 is a complete blank, one of the relatively few cars I have no file on now. Zero sign of it ever entering the UK. Just emailed Fabio Collina to ask where it sold new and specs. If it were in Oz our sleuths would know of it I think.
     
    rga likes this.
  16. chriskindl

    chriskindl Rookie

    Apr 2, 2010
    35
    Hello Achim,

    the item 37 on Tav1 is the spring (Spiralfeder) which tightens the valve shaft seal. The valve shaft guides hold through interference only.
    Please take off the inlet manifold to see if there is some oil on the valve shafts.

    Best Regards, Grüsse,
    Marek


     
  17. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
    1,120
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hello All...

    I thought you might find this interesting.. I was going through some old Maserati information I have and came across a copy of an
    e-mail from CUSTOMERSERVICE@OWNERS.MASERATI.COM from 2002.. The e-mail was in response to an e-mail from the
    previous owner of my car (US 1120) regarding build information.. In the e-mail the previous owner questioned the louvers in the
    front grill... Apparently, the info the previous owner had was that these louvers did not appear until 1977, and was wondering how
    they could be on his 1975 car...

    The response from CUSTOMERSERVICE@OWNERS.MASERATI.COM was as follows:

    We inform you that the front louvers on the radiator grill appeared for the first time time with the US Khamsin car in
    December 1974 - and precisely 59 cars before yours.

    We do not confirm that the first cars with front louvers have been built since 1977. Maybe this could be valid for European
    versions, since temperature was not a problem in Europe.

    Don't want to restart a big discussion on this topic, but thought some of you might find this interesting...

    Mike
     
    boralogist, MK1044 and Astonish78 like this.
  18. achimguenther1

    Nov 6, 2011
    39
    Germany, Baunatal
    Full Name:
    Achim Günther
    Hello Marek,
    thanks for your info.
    In the meantime, I think I found the problem and installed new valve shaft seals.
    With help of a special tool, I made, I took out the valve springs without disassembling the cylinder heads.
    My valve shaft seals were in bad condition, though they were new about 3 years ago.
    I assume it was my mistake that time: I gave the assembled cylinder heads to a powder coating shop to coat them with black shrink powder. Now I learned, that they heated them up to about 200 degrees celsius, and I found an info from ELRING that this is too hot for the material VITON.
    So I put in new seals. Additionally I put an O-Ring and silicone under the valve springs between aluminium head and brass valve guide to make absolutely sure that there in no leakage.
    I just finished the job and started the engine: it seams that problem is solved, no "blue" smoke any more.
    It was tricky work , especially for the rear valves on the right side of my car, but less work and costs than opening the engine.
    Thanks,
    Achim
     
    Nembo1777 and boralogist like this.
  19. Mexico074

    Mexico074 Formula 3

    Aug 14, 2008
    1,120
    Harriman, TN USA
    Full Name:
    Michael Demyanovich
    Hello Achim...

    What was this special tool you made? Can you attach a picture with some specifications?
    Might be of benefit to the rest of us K ownere...

    Many Thanks In Advance!

    Mike
     
  20. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    #9217 Nembo1777, Jan 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
    -Good morning Roger, AMLC,

    I have heard back already from Fabio...407 is in fact an Australian market car, 5 speed, RHD of course, sold new 8 February 79 in rosso Fuoco (red)/white. No specific info as to where in the country it sold.

    I will ask Graeme White who restored 403 to an amazing level years ago if he knows of this one as it seems to have lived under the radar.

    -Mike D hello,

    Regarding your post about nose vents: all US cars have them that we all know. For Euro cars they were implemented in the second year of production, i.e. started in 1975 as it was considered necessary for more air flow to the radiator...but there are discrepancies, some early cars like 040 have vents whereas quite a few much later ones such as 160, 180 for example have smooth noses. Beyond initial owners changing nose due to preferring this or that (or the other nose type being fitted in the course of acccident repairs), the real answer is really that the Bertone subcontractor who did the initial assembly of the cars took was on the shelf and fitted it on the car: luck of the draw. They weren't going to hold up production to wait for a vented nose section if an early type smooth nose was available. This was Italy not Japan. Other comments by whomever in your post are not by Cozza or Collina and too vague, they should be ignored.

    Gandini confirmed to me that long after the Khamsin design was finalized (with smooth nose) he was asked to design the vented nose.

    -Achim: that was too easy for your impressive skills. Now your next challenge is replacing the crankshaft while driving on the Autobahn;-) we impatiently await the video, Marek can film it:)
     
    rga and AMLC like this.
  21. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    2,710
    Hershey, PA
    Marc,
    Has it ever been determined how many Series 1 and Series 2 Khamsins were built and the approximate changeover vin number?
     
  22. SMarc

    SMarc Rookie

    Mar 21, 2016
    21
    It seems to me that Maserati also suggested to the customer of the first version to go and do the update locally at the dealership.
     
  23. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2006
    7,081
    opposite lock
    Full Name:
    Marc Sonnery
    #9220 Nembo1777, Jan 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
    Hello Joe,

    I never focused on that because Cozza confirmed to me that the engines were not detuned late on, only the brochures were, (i.e. a lower power figure was written) for political correctness(!). I consider it more of a gradual evolution with different headrests, wipers, the nose vents but there was not one razor sharp moment in time when there was a sudden and complete change.

    Hardly anyone uses series 1 series 2 in descriptions, I never do. I do not believe there is an official description for such a thing. Cozza and Collina in 20 years of faxes and emails have never ever used that appellation.

    If you really want an answer it is around chassis 220-230 that such changes seem to happen...but note what I wrote about the nose panels earlier....

    Remember that de Tomaso between taking control in 76 and production end in 82 did not invest one penny in Khamsins, just took in the orders he could take in until production ended partly out of natural cycle but also because he wanted to clear the factory floor and retool for Biturbo production.

    Had Citroen stayed on as owners after May 1975, had there not been the energy crisis and all its economic tsunami consequences, they would no doubt allowed the Guy Malleret (administrator) Giulio Alfieri (head engineer) era of management the means to decide about evolutions, upgrades on Khamsins. Paris never imposed, but let Maserati be itself, Pierre Bercot, the President of Citroen who had decided upon the Maserati acquisition had final say but he was hugely respectful of Maserati's integrity.

    I think all it would have needed is a means for the brake pedal not to be so sensitive. Otherwise it was perfect:) No?! I would have wanted a sixth gear to really fly;-)

    Cleto Grandi who did much of the road testing told me there had been talk of fitting a spring to the brake pedal to make more foot pressure necessary and therefore make it easier for the average driver to modulate pressure. With the events of the crisis and ownership change in 75-76 that went out the window.

    Of course the K is the only Maserati made only as a 4.9 (you could argue that even one or two 5000GT's did not have a 4.9 but that would be an off topic discussion) so it was born as a virtual SS right away.
     
    MK1044 and boralogist like this.
  24. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    687
    Having driven my K almost daily during its rebirth---approx 2,000 miles---I totally agree!
    The brake issue, however, can largely be resolved by totally rebuilding the LHM brake "master cylinder".
    Most owners don't realize how much of what they experience is not what Maserati intended.

    The sixth gear issue though is critical.
    ZF tells me they would have no problems installing a sixth in the K box!
    An overdrive sixth while retaining the US diff ratio would be my choice!
    :)
     
    Mexico074 and Nembo1777 like this.
  25. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    2,710
    Hershey, PA
    Marc,

    i tend to distinguish Series 1 and Series 2 Khamsins not so much on either nose vents or the supposed detuned engine. But on the significant changes to the interior, specifically the seats, etc as these weren’t something that was done as a modification to an existing car. The seats are a redesign, and unlike the Ghibli, Mistral etc. The seats in the Series 2 Khamsins are not interchangeable by switching hardware, the seats are actually different sizes Driver vs Passenger.
     
    Nembo1777 likes this.
  26. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 15, 2012
    912
    New York and Norway
    Full Name:
    Art
    Khamsin Parts Question -

    Has anyone sourced a replacement of the rubber boot and collar surrounding the steering shaft where it passes through the firewall?
    - There is no illustration or parts number for it in the Khamsin Catalog.
    - It functions similar to Table 19, Part 51 of the Bora Catalog, but it ain't the same.
    - I didn't see it in the Indy Catalog either.
    - Have you seen anything similar maybe even from a different car?
    - Inner seal has GACO part number SM 2020 7.

    Photos of part in question below.
    Grazie,
    - Art

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  27. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    502
    In November 2020 I looked, for the EURO LHD cars, at the seats and one other aspect, the number of rectangular warning lights on the dash (see page 358).

    #202 already has the new type seats and three warning lights. But the car with number #250 has the old type seats, #252 and #254 I don’t know.

    So there appears to be a “transition” (for the EURO LHD cars), from old seats and two lights, to new seats and three lights, between roughly #200 and #250..
    And between roughly #200 and #250 all combinations appear to be possible: #214 for example is the exact opposite of #236 when looking at seats and warning lights, it has new type seats and two warning lights, while #236 has the old type seats and three warning lights.

    But, as I already said in November, when someone posts a photo of a car with a chassis higher than #350, or even #300, and it has old style seats I will stop searching for patterns. :)
     
    Nembo1777 likes this.
  28. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
    2,710
    Hershey, PA
    that would seem to indicate that there was a 25 car transition period. The next question would naturally be is there a pattern related to the color of the seats? At the approximate time of the change there were still 10 sets of old style seats left over in Black, 6 in Red etc. once they were used on to the new style in those colors.
     

Share This Page