Maserati Khamsin

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Maeter, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    What is the "normal" cycle time of the hydraulic pump on a Khamsin when at idle?
    My Khamsin's pump is cycling every 10 seconds which I fear is too often. Car has a new main sphere and both brake accumulators have been rebuilt. There are no external leaks.
    Perhaps an internal leak in the steering rack? Or a faulty regulator?

    Ivan
     
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  3. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
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    In my experience 20-30 seconds depending on functions used is 'normal'.
    Internal leak in the steering rack is highly likely!
    Faulty regulator is extremely unlikely---never seen one go bad.
     
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  4. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    Any thoughts on how to determine if there is an internal steering rack leak? If I could somehow temporarily disconnect the rack from the hydraulic system this would tell me if the rack is the problem.

    Ivan
     
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  5. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

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    We have had a similar situation.
    After a lot of thought decided to let things be until we actually experience a negative symptom---
    so far, after a year, the rack continues to function perfectly!
     
  6. MK1044

    MK1044 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Marc, please post some photos.
     
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  8. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    That is planned Sir:)
     
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  9. 71Satisfaction

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    #10332 71Satisfaction, Apr 26, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2022
    Yes..
    .. I'd start by running the engine, operating the steering back-n-forth and monitor all the 4mm(3mm?) clear plastic/nylon return lines that are purposely installed at the rubber fittings and bellows to capture leaking LHM and return it to the reservoir.

    Yeah, that's a little short at idle with no demand. Your primary sphere is probably shot. Do you know how to visually check it? Are there any conditions under which the interval increases?

    The "normal" interval of the LHM compressor pump cycling can vary widely, sometimes according to the demand, sometimes not, and still operate reliably, but it's an indication of the spheres' health and what level of charge the nitrogen has left.

    How long does residual pressure last after engine shut-down.

    My Bora is very healthy and I can open/close the headlight doors about 10 hours later.

    Khamsin 1180 cycled every 2 minutes just driving along a standard road with moderate steering input and no brakes. Sometimes it would shorten significantly but not much less than 10 seconds. My 1196 cycles longer - every 5 minutes or more. It also shortens under high demand, but not as much as 1180. I will check the LHM System notes that I took when servicing Khamsin 1180 and 1196 to be sure. I think you might even find my posts on the topic here if you search my username and/or 1180.

    Other Citroen tidbits:
    - Between compression cycles, the pump is in circulation mode, it is still providing "ambient" pressure and fluid throughout the system, hence the minimal need to bleed air unless it's at a 'dead-end'.
    - The amplitude of the "CLICK" or "SNAP" sound from the pressure regulator at its cut-off point is also an indicator: Loud is a good and strong. Soft is a weakening system. My understanding is the loudness is how much pressure the valve is shutting off at the primary sphere. The more pressure, the better the nitrogen charge, the louder it gets. The system itself is still very durable and fails gracefully. You won't typically lose steering or brakes - you just run the pump a heck of a lot.


    Cheers,
    - Art
     
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  10. staatsof

    staatsof Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    With dead accumulators you'll have zero brakes as soon as the engine stops! :eek:
    BTW, I think Ivan said that they were all new?
     
  11. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula 3

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    #10334 71Satisfaction, Apr 27, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2022
    Ivan,
    Some time ago you started a thread dedicated to "Citroen Hydraulics - ..." we could migrate the discussion there, but take a look there too.

    'New' doesn't always equate to 'good'. An owner can easily get a sense of the spheres' health by checking 'engine-off' residual pressure.

    ...with an engine that isn't running.
    - At speed the rotation of engine and belts keeps the pump going.
    - You can apply clutch, slip it into a lower gear, then clutch out, and repeat to a slower speed.
    - You can apply the handbrake.

    ..advice:
    - Check the car's residual pressure capacity on a regular basis.
    - If in doubt, don't operate the car without the engine running.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
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  13. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula 3

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    #10335 71Satisfaction, Apr 27, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2022
    Ivan,
    Below is my entry from testing 1180 at the end of last summer. It is remarkably similar to yours, though it didn't cycle as fast at idle. I have not driven, made any changes or repairs to 1180 since then. My notes don't include whether I confirmed my thoughts with Allen, but I'll review it again next week when I have lunch @ D.Burnham Citroen.

    "1180 - As soon as I got underway in 1180, the Cycle 2 Clicks were the most obvious sound - very short durations between Cycle 2 Clicks, like maximum 10 seconds when cruising a stretch of country road. But any demand placed on LHM pressure triggered a very rapid series of Clicks; any steering input, clutch or braking and the Clicks would start sounding like a very quiet machine gun - the Click intervals were THAT short.!! .. Then the Clicks would increase in interval as LHM demand decreased, up to about every 10 seconds maybe 20 seconds or so - which I believe is still short. (What I think is happening is the primary regulator is shunting pressure to the secondaries to satisfy demand, but if the secondaries are collapsed too, then nowhere in the system can pressure be accumulated for long. I will confirm with Allen whether this also means the Secondaries are shot). I got the 'Brake Pressure Warning' light a lot, but no failure of brakes. Steering and clutch boost failed intermittently at low engine speeds. I was not able to hear a Cycle 1 "Rrrrrrrrr" before any of the Cycle 2 Clicks. No idea why."

    NOTE - My definition of 'Cycle 2' is the cycle of the primary accumulator shunting pressure to the secondaries, which I believe ends with a 'Click'. This is a little nebulous, and I'm working on clarifying how a system should normally work. How loud is your 'Click'?

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  14. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula 3

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    NB - I have a later a note to ask DB Citroen how to diagnose a pump failure - if the residual pressure of the accumulator system without the engine running is good.

    - Art
     
  15. staatsof

    staatsof Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    A lot of people won't think of that but I remember one Maserati meet where I first met Klaus Groth and his unrestored as yet Bora had this condition and he drove all the way from Thousand Oaks (Near LA) to lake Tahoe like that! :eek: When he was sitting the handbrake had to be applied immediately. So leave lots of signage in multiple languages in your car when you ship it summer.
     
  16. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Hello all,

    The rebuilder of the crashed Khamsin 182 has determined that he probably needs another steering rack; is this a Citroen SM rack? If so are they totally identical? It seems to me the SM steering wheel lock to lock is less. If not what other cars use the same rack? Many thanks.
     
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  17. Froggie

    Froggie Formula Junior

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    +1
    Could an admin do that?
     
  18. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

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    #10340 boralogist, Apr 28, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
    boralogist said:

    Apologies Dave.
    Thought truth was an absolute defense!

    Stand corrected.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, there ya go. Stepped over, reiterating, albeit somewhat cleverly, your prior insult. This time without any need for inference.
    one month thread ban.
    do it again and you'll get a temp site ban instead.

    D

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C'mon --- please stop wasting my time.
    Be a man!
    PLEASE BAN ME PERMANENTLY FROM YOUR ENTIRE SITE plus anything else you are capable of...

    NOBODY EVER GOT ME TO SUFFER FOOLS GLADLY.

    Bye.
     
  19. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

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    #10341 boralogist, Apr 28, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
    Re: BORA Thread---from which I am banned!
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Ivan---Probably my last comment!

    Yes---I also have NEVER seen that US Supplement to the K Use Manual.
    Fascinating.
    At least we managed to have something useful dug up.
    BRAVO to barnfieldman!

    Be well!
     
  20. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Three Time F1 World Champ
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    boralogist 30 day site ban - PM's are, well, PRIVATE for a reason.

    Posting here, bad form, and not going to make it permanent, despite your request.

    I think if you take 30 days off to think about it, you'll come back a better user.

    D
     
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  21. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Three Time F1 World Champ
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    boralogist - ban extended to 60 days after an attempt to re-register here with a new user ID while banned.

    D
     
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  22. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula 3

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    According to my friends on the Citroen chat room, an SM rack should be an exact "drop-in" replacement for the Khamsin rack.
    - Reference Khamsin parts catalog Table 20, Part 83 at the top of the page shows the power steering rack assembly.

    ...but, the steering rods and tie-rod ends may need to be lifted from the original Khamsin.
    - Reference Khamsin parts catalog Table 20, Parts 80 and [48, 50 and 53] - these are the steering rods and tie rods.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  23. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Thank you Art,

    I will relay that. I will also consult an SM specialist friend of mine who had four Khamsins and also relay what he says here.

    Since the original question was asked by the owner of the crashed Khamsin 182 it is likely that he will need new steering rods and tie-rod ends.

    By the way he is bringing the car from Poland to KHAMSIN CINQUANTA in June next year back to its former glory: a truly heroic restoration because this was an extremely nice car, I call it a rebirth and he will get due cheers at K50:)!!!

    Here a photo after the accident in France late February 2020 (straight into a ditch in the rain) and a photo done for a very nice article in France's Sport Auto Classiques magazine.

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  24. Nembo1777

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    PS: I just spoke to Michel B. my friend the specialist south of Lyon who has worked on countless SM's and had four Khamsins. He said he never looked closely but that he strongly assumes the rack is identical to an SM. The steering lock to lock ratio is the same. The regulator at the back of the car is different but in this K the rear is intact, in fact the car is 99% ok behind the windshield base.
     
  25. Nembo1777

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    #10347 Nembo1777, May 11, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    Saturday May 7 in Belgium the restoration workshop Mistral Classics inaugurated its new location with a cocktail reception.
    There were no less than four Khamsins in the workshop!

    The blue car is AM120-294 recently discovered in Belgium after long slumber. It has its Staumont added chassis plate, Staumont was the Belgian importer at the time. The brown car is a US car, 1092, which sat for years in Portugal, dismantled. It is being totally restored little by little in its original color, of course it will get Euro bumpers. Note that it had the vented nose, like all US cars, but was given a smooth nose by current owner preference. The white car is 1206 also a US car, automatic, that has spent a long time in Germany, in fact it has the additional German chassis plate. The car on top of the small brick construction is AM120-208 new to Japan where it ended up sitting out doors for years. A Berlin enthusiast bought it, had it shipped to Germany but it was too rusty to be saved so he kept the engine and manual gearbox and sold it so it could be used as a parts car for 1092. So 208 has alas ceased to exist but its parts will help other Khamsins survive an unavoidable sacrifice with a positive outcome.

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  26. Nembo1777

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    This old JPS cigarettes Germany ad resurfaced on Instagram recently.

    I remembered it form back then with a group of sports cars, all suitably black. This was for a contest: win a chance to drive these from Munich
    to Monaco.

    But what I did not recall is that there was a Khamsin in it.

    Then I noticed that it had blackened out chrome, like that of a friend in Germany, who came to KHAMSIN QUARANTA with it back in 2012.
    I know it had special order blackened chrome from new on the build sheets so I asked him if he knew if it had been his car. He answered I don't know, could be.

    Then I asked Fabio Collina at the factory archives to check and lo and behold...only ONE K ever came with blackened chrome so it is indeed this one, AM120-404!
    Pretty cool. It is also one of the very last built.

    Here is the ad, a close up and some photos of it at K40 where it won best preservation award.

    By the way he was going to sell it but has decided to keep it and will bring it to K50:)


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  27. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran
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    Greetings from Modena:)

    I was at the Villa d'Este Concours this past weekend, wonderful event though full on heat wave. There were no K's there or at Villa Erba and a third local event but there was a K at the Treste Concorso on the Adriatic coast a few hundred kms to the east.
    A mystery car but since 1286 is based in Italy was recently repainted bare shell to verde pino (pine green) and it is clearly a US car with criss cross wiper I do think it is 1286, if anyone knows better please let us know. Photos refuses to post but see here from 4.22 minutes:

     
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  28. rga

    rga Formula Junior

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    You lucky one! Hopping to all these beautiful places and enjoying it.

    My last pic is from before the repaint. But I would be surprised if they changed the chrome mirrors for black plastic ones :oops:
    All other US cars in Italy are of a different colour than in the youtube video, so maybe this one is unknown?
     

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