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360 Mass Air Flow Sensors (MAFS)

Discussion in '360/430' started by Need4Spd, Sep 6, 2020.

  1. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    I responded to a few other posts that started on different topics but diverged to a MAFS discussion, so I thought I'd post a recent experience. First, the MAFS system on 360s is pretty much the same as other mfrs who used the Bosch ignition system and MAFS of that early 2000s era. As such, my sense was that prior experience with MAFS with other cars that use a similar system (such as my e39 M5), would be helpful.

    That seems to be the case. My M5 buddies (some of whom are on this board) and I figured out from experience that MAFS performance degrades long before any codes are thrown, and often cause other symptoms that do throw codes. These can drive you nuts because you can get codes like "random misfire" and yet not know the actual root cause. You can go through ignition coil and plug replacement, only to find nothing's changed. But then you replace the MAFS with a fresh set, and all those symptoms disappear.

    That is what I found with my M5, and it's true with my 360 now. I recently saw some posts about how you can get genuine Bosch, but non-OEM MAFS for much less than the part with the horse on the box. I was a bit skeptical at first, but so long as the part is genuine, and the same part number, I figured this should be fine. So far, I think that's right. I got mine from CarID, but you can also get them from RockAuto or Mick's Garage at a fraction of the OEM price. The part inside the Bosch box (with the holographic seal) is identical as far as I can tell, with the exact same part numbers as my old OEM MAFS. I got mine from CarID for a total of $222 for both, plus tax and shipping.

    (Note that you may need a new set of hose clamps. The OEM clamps are Oetinger type. To me, they are "one and done" because I'm not all that good at prying them loose, and I don't have an Oetinger clamp tool. So I replaced mine with stainless Zebra claims with a worm gear. You need the narrow band variety that many auto parts stores don't have, so you might need to call around rather than assume your local AutoZone will have them. The proper size is 9mm width and the diameter range 70-90mm. You can also just swap the MAFS module if you have a proper size five point Torx security bit, but I changed the housing, too. The housing comes in the box with the new MAFS installed, and I figured that the housings might be dirty, so why not swap the whole unit?) There is some debate over whether you should use worm-style clamps instead of Oetinger clamps, but so long as you're careful not to over-torque worm clamps so that they pinch the hose and cause an air leak, I think the worm-type is fine.)

    I installed a new set last week in my car with about 35k miles. The improvement was instantly noticeable. The engine revved more freely and throttle response was more crisp and instantaneous as you might expect for a high-revving N/A engine. The idle became more steady and strong, and no longer stumbled a bit on initial off-the-line engagement (my car is a gated manual). A random misfire CEL that had plagued me off and on, disappeared. I don't know what (or if) there is a standard replacement interval for MAFS, but as our cars are now at least 15 years old, and with my car at 35k miles, I figured it was time.

    Now, I'm not saying this is a cure-all for a poorly running engine. Your car might well have some or all of these symptoms and it really might be one or more bad ignition coils or plugs. But FWIW, at around similar age and mileage, my M5 had exhibited similar symptoms that all went away similarly with a swap-in of new MAFS. And if you swap in a new set and there is no difference, at worst you've now got a spare set that you can use someday in the future. (Most places won't let you return them if they've been installed or the seal on the box has been broken.)

    Bosch MAFS are very sensitive to contamination, and degrade slowly. You may not realize how far they've degraded until you swap in a new set. Think of the old story about the frog that won't jump out of a slowly heated pot of water. Anyway, fearful of slow MAFS contamination, I always use standard paper air filters rather than any that are made of gauze or other high flow material that rely on oil or other liquid substances to trap particles. The car may run better at first, but the contamination from the oils slowly erodes power and you won't know it because you won't necessarily get any codes, and you may not notice unless you put the car on a dyno. Most of us don't do that. So I recommend sticking with paper filters.

    Also, there are various MAFS cleaners on the market. I've tried them all, and they work, but only for a short period. It seems once the MAFS have been contaminated or "worn," cleaning them helps but the reduced performance comes back in a relatively short time. My theory is that the cleaner leaves its own residue that interferes with proper operation. But it's just a theory. I do know, though, that the same symptoms will return in a short time after cleaning. Only swapping in new MAFS seems to be a long term solution.
     

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  3. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula Junior
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    Great writeup of your experience. I'm in the process of developing a tester that can determine how well a MAF is functioning. It would be nice to know exactly what state the MAF is in before replacing it, or to know that one has gone bad vs. both. I developed a tester for the throttle bodies already. That was quite an experience and eye opening. Degradation happens in every component regardless of power source. These electronic gadgets just are more sinister than the old mechanical ones. We can't simply wiggle a linkage or check a tolerance.

    If you've saved your old MAF's, I'd like them for my project. I have a pretty good collection of them right now but could use a lot more. The more units I can test, the better the test will be. PM me for more info...
     
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  4. Performify

    Performify Karting
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    Just to provide some resources for those following along:

    A previous thread on this topic with some good info:
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/bosch-maf-for-110.611917/

    Ferrari P/N: 171707
    The same MAF with Bosch part number: 0 280 218 012.
    They are identical except for the box. Ferrari box vs. Bosch Box.
    Do not buy the cheap imitation / Chinese made non Bosch parts. The build is not the same.

    MAF insert only part number: BOSCH F00 C2G 2030.​

    valid link / latest price with shipping for a pair of sensors as of posting:

    Rockauto - $215.77
    https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/bosch,0280218012,mass+air+flow+sensor,5128

    Autohauz @ $221.97
    https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/0280218012

    CarID @ $222.56
    https://www.carid.com/bosch/mass-air-flow-sensor-mpn-0280218012.html

    @EastMemphis I went ahead and ordered a pair just to go ahead and replace with everything else i'm doing -- i'll send you mine when they come out.
     
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  5. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Considering the 430 , scuderia and 16m mafs are different..does anyone have the same cross ref research done ?

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  6. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    PM sent. Would be great to see what you find.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  8. toussi1

    toussi1 Karting

    Jun 10, 2007
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    Anyone changing their MAF with above, let us know if you experienced anything, i'm at 20K miles on the original, not sure if worth changing.
     
  9. whatheheck

    whatheheck F1 Rookie
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    Thanks for sharing.

    My experience is the same on my BMW M5, M6 & 360.
    So the recommendation is to replace them preventively once they get fairly old.

    Dan


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  10. PCarRI

    PCarRI Karting
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    I've done a quick 20 min check of the forums and the internet for the part #'s on the MAFs on my 430 Spider and no luck. Hoping I'm wrong, but looks like the only source is Ferrari for the F430 MAFs.
     
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  12. S F

    S F Karting

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  13. Performify

    Performify Karting
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    #11 Performify, Dec 1, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020

    For what its worth, we installed the Rockauto sourced MAFs today and the car would not run well. No codes, but it was clearly rough / something was wrong. We cleaned and re-installed the factory MAFs and the car ran like a champ.

    Could be one is defective. Hard to know in the field without access to test equipment we don't have. But easily reproducible according to a master tech.

    Unfortunately Rockauto only allows returns in 30 days, and I'm outside that window (thanks COVID). Their automated warranty replacement system did not work for me because the 1999 360 is not in their database (only lists 2000+) and I could not move backwards once the system asked and I answered my correct model year.

    Will update on their customer service as it goes :)
     
  14. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
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    I'd bet there will be a CEL if you drive for more than 100 miles

     
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  15. 67bmer

    67bmer Formula Junior

    Oct 28, 2015
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    The insert only looks like it comes with a tool to remove them! I was wondering about that. My Griot's bit set does not fit those screws, it needs a larger center hole.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  16. Performify

    Performify Karting
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    #14 Performify, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
    RockAuto CS so far has been awesome.

    They won't do a out-of-range return but they did make the warranty return process easy.
    Relatively standard, order a new one and they'll refund when they receive the old back.

    Definitely a good note though that with only a 30-day return policy you don't want to sit on the parts if you want a refund if something goes wrong.

    I did catch something, only one of the two MAFs I had received from them had a hologram authentication seal on the box -- i don't know that Bosch seals all their boxes with these, but its definitely something to check.

    I have two new ones on their way back to me and will report once received if there are any issues or not.
     
  17. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

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    Just bought a set from rockauto....
     
  18. S F

    S F Karting

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    Sorry to hear that. I used the ones from rock auto and they were identical to OE and the car runs perfectly with them. Did you swap them and immediately start the car or did you reset the ECUs first and let the car relearn fuel trims?
     
  19. SCKOMS

    SCKOMS F1 Rookie
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    Let us know how they work out please.

    Sent from my Galaxy
     
  20. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    I got mine from CarID, put them in, and just started the car. Ran perfectly, and (as expected) stronger than before. No need to reset by powering everything off in my view.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  21. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

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    Noted, will do!
     
  22. SCKOMS

    SCKOMS F1 Rookie
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    Did you buy the insert only?

    Sent from my Galaxy
     
  23. Performify

    Performify Karting
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    Black Horse swapped them, at the same time we installed the new Mase Engineering ECUs, started the car, noted the extremely rough idle. They started it a second time, noted same rough idle, swapped my old MAFS back, and noted it returned to operating normally.

    My guess is with the one MAF box without the hologram seal, i got a bad / counterfeit MAF. But that's just a guess -- will be receiving a new pair under warranty from them this week and will update -- will only have cost me $7 in return shipping.

    Note that i did not have a problem with my MAFs before (as far as i know) -- no issues or codes, just replacing preventatively given everything else i'm investing in refreshing the car.
     
  24. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    No. For 360, so I got them with the entire housing.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  25. DonJuan348

    DonJuan348 F1 Rookie
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    Where did you get red hose?
     
  26. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    The red hose was part of the carbon fiber air box upgrade from Fabspeed.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  27. S F

    S F Karting

    May 13, 2016
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    Best practice would be to reset the ECUs so fuel trims can be relearned. If one MAF was reading extremely irregular, the car will be compensating for it the best that it can by either subtracting or adding fuel. While it would probably relearn over time, why risk an extremely rich or lean situation for the first several miles if it can be easily avoided?
     

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