MASSA Intends To Bid For 2008 WDC

I completely accept that. His reaction was clearly a result of his innate character, traits he'd no doubt had since he was a boy. It's just that they came out in a way that was more obvious than before because of the McLaren situation.

 

I fully agree with that and I’m sure we will see more of his green bile this season.

 

That's what worries me about FA. His "character" continues to become stronger and more pronounced each season.

 

That'll be interesting to see. There is a good chance that he won't blow a fuse because he has again the "fatherly love" of Flabio. But then again he has a short fuse so if he gets left behind in the first half of the season because the car isn't there yet, I expect some fireworks in the press.

Also once he realizes that the WDC is all but over for him this year, he'll probably voice his frustration. Can't wait to see that.

 

I'm not sure we'll necessarily see much this season. He has almost certainly got what he wants in terms of number 1 status in the team, so that's something he won't have to complain about. If the car doesn't perform as he would wish it to he'll no doubt have something to say, but hopefully he'll keep it within the team.

 

I respectfully dissagree with your point concerning MS being the same if not worse than FA. I don't think MS putting his own interests in front of the team's is as detrimental as FA's. It would appear that MS's decisions for the #2 drivers were pretty good for the team. IIRC, from 1996 to 2006 Ferrari's lowest WCC finish was 3rd and that was only one year. Now I know that nobody's perfect but that's pretty darn close. Plus, MS is still actively supporting Ferrari. So it would appear that he did and does still care for the team. I would agree that MS was very self-centered and I did not agree with how he acted on many, many occations. I am just saying that I see a difference with the way FA handles his self-centered ego compared to MS and the difference is that FA's is more unstable and detrimental to a team. IMO, FA seems more like, "if you don't give me what I demand regardless of if I deserve it or not, then FU and the team." FA appears to feel so passionately about this that he doesn't care who he tells or what the consequence is just as long as he gets his way. To me, that seems different than MS if we are comparing the two.

I do agree with a lot of what you stated. You have a wealth of F1 knowledge and I appreciate your comments. As I've stated before, I just have a differing opinion concerning Alonso and the level of "unstable questionable" baggage that he brings to a team. Personally, I hope FA get's a grip on his ego and learns how to manage it very soon!...because if and when he ever does come to Ferrari then at least I could sleep better.

 

+1

Hopefully this season will be a turrning point for FA. Then again though, he very easily could fall right back into the same whining, blaming, tantrum throwing rut. Should be very interesting to say the least.

 

Again, it is an untenable position. You are inventing a set of circumstances that are purely speculation, then making the argument that it was not contrary to the rules because Massa decided to do this on his own.

Do you think Jean Todt didn't know that Massa was going to lose the race? Do you think Massa just decided on his own to pull it over? It was part of the team's strategy - that much is very obvious. As for what the rule means, you don't need to invent scenarios whereby it's allowed or it's not allowed, because the metric is simple. If each individual driver and his team does not put forth their maximum effort to finish in the best position possible, then the team has downgraded the performance to give an advantage to their other driver and has gone contrary to the rules. Massa finished two races in a position other than he would have otherwise, the goal was to let Kimi finish higher to gain maximum points.

THATS TEAM ORDERS.

If you consider doing something against the rules to be cheating, then they cheated, pure and simple.

 

I agree it's a stupid rule and should be cut out of the rulebook.

BUT, if someone's definition of cheating is doing something contrary to the rules, then their team has cheated. If breaking rules doesn't mean you cheated, then fine - we can call it something else, and then maybe we can apply that same "its not really cheating, it's...." to certain other F1 situations. Or, if it is cheating we could apply a sanction to the cheating.

It may be a silly rule but a rule it is - and when it's broken then it's broken. We all know that the rule was broken at least twice by Ferrai, most of us write it off as "yep they did it and it's a stupid rule" (which is my opinion). Others invent situations and duck and weave and make the claim that the rule was not really broken, which is lunacy.

 

Most of what you are saying, just like others, I agree with 100%. Yes it was just a speculation. But that is what it is at best. For me, for you, for FIA and anyone else. just as you said we don't know what happened in Massa's head. Todt is his manager (well his son is) and there is a very good chance he "mentioned" to him that if he helped the team (which anyone should do if he considers himself part of a team) it would help his future with Ferrari. In that case my analogy is very realistic.
Look I am not arguing that if you break a rule it is not always cheating, depending on the circumstances. What I am saying is that officially Ferrari did not brake any rules in Brazil. Get over it. I don't make the rules and I don't judge the incidents, even if I liked to. Neither do you. What I think or 10 000 other Ferrari fans means squat in this case. Same goes for you.
The way I see it LH caused an accident behind the safety car. He broke the rules. He cheated. For the Nth time last season. But guess what? there was an investigation and it was found he did nothing wrong. So I said OK I was wrong. Now in Brazil no one even questioned it. There was not even an eyebrow razed from another team. So who are you? The F1 lawyers? Saying that even if not a single person INSIDE the F1 finds anything wrong with what happened, it is still so just because you say so?

 

You really are hard work, I will put it another way. On the motorways in the UK the speed limit is 70MPH alot of drivers exceed that speed most of the time knowing they are breaking the law. The police know it goes on but let it go, as long as your not taking the p'ss. On the other hand they can stop and fine you if they want for a speed slightly over the limit. The point is alot of folk break the law cheat whatever it is a LAW/RULE it does not mean it is right because alot of folk do it. In F1 this sort of thing applies to team orders to stop the racing looking like a farce between team members, we all know it goes on it's done with varying degrees of subtlety and if the FIA want to, like the UK police they can inforce there ruling.

And as regards to LH ,you feel he cheated because he caused a accident well it's nice to hear you admit you were wrong.

 

You never learn, do you? You can't come up with a coherent response to my point so you pull out this ridiculous, idiotic, and patently absurd argument because that is ALL you have to fall back on. What next? You going to question my 355 again? This is pathetic, simply pathetic. You have nothing, N-O-T-H-I-N-G, to say about my support of the team.

You announce that you will no longer support the team if Alonso is signed, you call for the ouster of Kimi 4 races into his season and you have the gall, let alone the insolence, to post the above statement? You are just another fair-weather fan who jumped on the bandwagon when Schumacher started winning, you have NO IDEA what it means to be a Ferrari fan because you have already demonstrated time and time again a willingness to abandon your support of the team and its drivers at the drop of a hat. Where were you when Ferrari was going YEARS between wins? Where were you when Andretti took his first f1 win? Where were you when GV crashed? Where were you when Lauda nearly died at the Nurburgring? Where were you when Jackie Ickx was winning for Ferrari Where were you?

I was right there, trackside at Watkins Glen barely out of kindergarten, supporting the team. I was there for ALL of that. I was less than 200 yards from Francois Cevert's accident at the Glen in 1973, I have been following F1 and cheering Ferrari on that long.

Where were you?

I have been supporting this team for longer than you have been chasing cats up trees. There is only one true Tifoso here and it isn't you. Why are YOU here?

 

Clint, you make an excellent and well-reasoned argument, unlike some of the more simple-minded sycophants around here.

I have to admit that you are correct in one respect, I may have overstated when I called Alonso and Schumacher's attitudes to be equally destructive. Schumacher's acts may have proved detrimental to the team after his departure had he succeeded in keeping Kimi out of the team but they were successful during his tenure, at least with Irvine and Rubens on board. Both of those drivers delivered WCCs to the team as well as 2nd place finishes in the WDC which is exactly what a top-level #2 driver should do. What we do know is that Ferrari would have not had Kimi for 2008 had Schumacher succeeded in keeping him out of the team for 2007 and we simply don't know who they could have got to replace him but in all likelihood it would not have been a top driver as none were available. So it is a safe assumption that Ferrari would have suffered a decline in competitiveness on Schumacher's departure, had he had his way.

We will never know how Ferrari would have fared with two top drivers on board but we do know that McLaren followed the co#1 strategies with Senna and Prost and won two WDCs, two WCCs, and 26 out of 32 GPs in their two years together. So there is no way we can argue that one approach is superior to the other as there are examples of both approaches succeeding.

As far as Alonso at Ferrari, all we can do is speculate how he would fare. Maybe he would fit in perfectly, maybe he would be an agitant. One thing we DO know is that he would be fast and competitive, what more can we ask from a Ferrari driver?

 

There you go again....ridiculing firefighters......Where was I? On the planet earth, a place you dont seem to be. I suggest you take a pill.

 

Just what I thought, you have nothing to say in response.

I am the only Tifoso in this conversation. Don't you dare ever question my Ferrari support ever again, you fair-weather bandwagon-jumper.

 

ROTFLMAO....You slam Luca for not hiring Alonshlole a driver that could single handedly destroy the team with a track record to prove it, you slam Michael Schumacher the person who single handedly returned la scuderia to respectability, You were totaly against Ferrari in the McCheater scandle, You say that they cheated using team orders last season, You cant stand Massa who is doing some serious testing for the team something Kimi does very little of, You hate Jean todt, The only drivers you seriously back are former McCheater team boys (Kimi and Alonshole) Now please tell me again that you are a serious Tifoso. I think the majority of the fans in here really know what you are so please stop making us laugh and stop making a fool of yourself.

 

This is your argument? This is your rationale? Are you kidding?!? This is all you have?!? You are a joke

As I said, where have you been while I have been supporting Ferrari for the last 35 years? You show up when Schumacher starts winning and you are ready to throw in the towel as soon as they hire a driver you don't like. And somehow in your small, feeble, weak mind this constitutes a Ferrari fan?

You do not know the meaning of the word Tifoso let alone deserve the honor of calling yourself one.

Where have you been the last 35 years? I know where you have not been, cheering Ferrari on from trackside as I have been doing.

I may be the only Tifoso in this conversation but you are the only one making a fool out of yourself.

You are a joke, you fair-weather bandwagon-jumping sycophant.

 

How do you know where Ive been? But then you must know as you can shape history to your suitability right? As usual you continue to insult posters. You are one hell of an insecure person.

 

I know where you haven't been: supporting Ferrari for the past 35 years. You are a fair-weather bandwagon-jumping sycophant by your own admission

 

ROTFLMAO

 

Senna3Xwc and 355 black flag for 72 hours for unruly behavior. Personal attacks, etc.

Knock it off.

See you all Thursday.

Dave M.

 

Dave for a minute I thought I got banned again, and realized it was Ted.

 

Sorry 'bout that. Cleaned up my post to make it clearer.

Dave

 

Before I get flamed and accused and abused, I would like to say that I am not trying to get in this pissing match or take sides.
Someone saying that another person is not a true fan of a team, company, brand or whatever without personally knowing the person, simply based on their emotions towards this person is simply wrong.
I believe that being a true die hard fan of anything is much like love. It takes some people years and others just a blink of an eye. Just because someone has been following the sport for years does not prove him a die hard fan of a certain team. And same way by just not attending races does not disqualify you.
My father was a die hard F1 fan. Not as much of a Ferrari fan, but he just loved racing. I grew up in eastern Europe behind the iron curtain. F1 was one of the few "western programs" allowed on TV. I don't know if this was the reason why people followed it religiously but everyone did. When I could barely talk my dad brought home (from Hungary I think) this pedal F1 car. It was all green and My dad put whole lot of stickers on it to make it "more real" I drove that thing all the time until the plastic tires got holes in them. My dad worked with tires so made me this cool tires for it with hand cut grooves in the shape of the British flag. I can only imagine how much time it took him. One day he took me at teh top of a hill in the park, told me to take my legs out so the pedals don't brake them and just pushed me down the alley. This thing gained unbelievable speed and scared the living **** out of my dad as I managed to spin it at the bottom and stop barely a meter from the fountain at the end of the alley. This was the day the speed bug bit me. I grew up with the stories of Ferrari and McLaren and the turbo Renaults and the many heroes of F1. But more than anyone else my dad used to talk about Lauda and Villeneuve. If you never lived it you would not understand but back in the late seventies in the eastern block countries it was a big deal to have Matchbox cars (or Polistil). I will never forget it but one late night my dad came home in his not most sober condition and sat me on a chair in the kitchen and pulled out of his pocket this little cardboard box with a little car inside. It was a 1976 Ferrari 312T number 12. Then he went on and told me all he knew about Lauda.
From that moment on I've been in love with Ferrari and have always supported them.
I never saw a live F1 race until the USGP in 2000, but I never missed a race on tv for as long as I can remember. My Father is the official importer of Bridgestone for my country now and can get a VIP paddock pass for any of the European rounds yet he never had seen a race until I took him to the USGP last year.
I have broken my neck twice. relearned how to walk once. Rearranged my internal organs a couple of times too. I have numerous burn scars on my legs from my cart's exhaust because of getting off from the wrong side just to avoid the look from my dad after loosing a race. I would do it all, all over again in the blink of an eye. I bleed rosso corsa and someone insinuating that I am not a true fan just because I have not been on the track 30 years ago is just laughable.
Just like a woman, your favorite team can hurt you and you can get mad at them. Just because I have said that if Ferrari hire Alonshole (Alonso is an ********* = Alonshole) it would be the year I take a sabbatical from following F1 does not make me less of a fan. On the contrary, it shows how passionately we can feel about a team.
Some people always cheer for the winning team. They are not true fans. This however, does not make people who trash the team when it is winning true fans either. In my personal opinion, there is plenty of forums and sites for people who have a general love for the sport. I don't find anything wrong with having objective and unbiased opinions either, but I don't believe that people who don't show support for Ferrari and their drivers and constantly bash them, have any business on any Ferrari site.
I am a true Ferrari fan ,and even tho I am sure I can learn a lot in a McLaren fan site, I don't believe I would have any business on it.