They didn't like the fact that he was a German, and at times previously drove rather aggressively. He was never accused or obviously guilty of using stolen information. Luis, I see a big difference.
I do not understand this argument. It seems that when the discussion is supporting Massa, the argument becomes that support for the team AND its drivers is an absolute. However, when the discussion turns to Alonso, all sorts of conditions come out, none of which bear up to scrutiny. Furthermore the statement is not that you would not support the driver, you actually state you would no longer support the team. Some here (including you) have made it abundantly clear that your support for the team is conditional on who drives for them. Fine. That is entirely your prerogative. However what I fail to understand is that for those of you who hold this view, how on Earth could you complain about some of us criticizing the driver? I think it is far less worthy of complaint when a person criticizes a driver but otherwise supports the team when others are completely willing to turn their back on the entire team if they don't like the driver. Those of you taking the moral high ground ought to seriously reflect on this.
Jane, I mean Ted, I think you sort of reversed your points in that sentence of the last paragraph, but I got your point. If you change the word "less" to "more", I think your point is clearer. ;} At any rate you are overlooking and/or minimizing one important fact: Alonso is guilty of knowingly using stolen data from another team to improve his position. On top of that, Alonso dissed his own team. That point absolutely bears up to scrutiny, $100 million worth of scrutiny. Massa is not guilty of such acts. I do not see how you can compare the situations unless your own bias is blinding you to the facts. How you can compare an admitted unethical acts of Alonso to the unsubstantitated argument about Massa's driving is a mystery. One has to do with ethics, the other with driving. Wanting the team I support to have some ethical standards as to the people they employ is not unreasonable, and if fact is a very worthy reason to make the support decision. Image to the world is important. They might as well have been allowed to keep Stephney and Coughlin in the sport. My support for the Scuderia is only conditional if they were to cross the line and hire someone obviously guilty of unethical acts and of placing himself above the team without remorse, such as Alonso, just for the sake of winning. Winning loses its merit at that time. I would continue to support Ferrari even they hired Sato, Coultard, Rossi, even JPM (yes, you read that right). There is a huge difference, and your not taking the "moral high ground" and trying to compare this to the Massa BS is something you should question. I do.
So Michael having an illegal car in 94 was better? Apples and oranges to me. There is no way he didn't know about that.
This is a stretch Luis. Having an illegal car is nothing compared to knowingly using stolen information from another team. In the typical theft, that is called "accessory to the crime", that is what describes Alonso's behaviour. And I would guess that every car on every grid on any Sunday has something about it that is not per the rule book. Michael may or may not have known. Mechanics do not tell their drivers everything, its called plausible deniability. Alonso knew where the Ferrari data came from, and still used it. I do not doubt Alonso's driving skill, I have stated that my opinion of him has substantially changed. I find his calm nature this year to actually be pleasant to watch during interviews. But what he did, and what he did to his own team is nothing minor, and will always follow him. If he wanted to do something ethical, at that time he should have told McLaren mangement he wanted nothing to do with stolen data. But he didn't do that.
Ron, How can you call those cars crap when his teammates finished 2nd in the championship then first? The race I was talking about was Sepang last year. Massa started from pole then got passed by Alonso then Hamilton. He then proceeded to chuck the car off course chasing Hamilton. Now he started from pole, there couldn't have been too much wrong with the car. There was no report of car trouble after the race as far as i can remember either. Losing 4 spots because you crack under pressure is different than losing a spot because you are trying to make a pass. That's why the "that's racing" comment doesn't apply to him. He's always seeming to panic under pressure. I don't remember him coming up through the field but i don't doubt that it happened, but that doesn't happen too often with him. If you start Alonso, Hamilton, MS or Kimi from the back of the grid you can count on the fact that they are going to the front. Not so with Massa. He's simply not at thier level. Also in the 6 years he's been in F1 he's only managed to beat JV as a teammate and that was by only two points. Heidfeld he got close too but was overdriving all year long , MS, Kimi and Fisi all beat him. There was nothing in his resume to me, that even made him impressive enough for the second seat at Ferrari. Now at Ferrari every year he says he's gonna take the fight to his teammate and every year so far he's been behind them. He's already made two unforced errors this year, which doesn't speak well for his title hopes. Kimi might have spun twice (I only remember once) but he did win one race and is a better position that Felipe is. Spining during practice is one thing spining durning the race is another. Felipe keeps making the same errors over and over again, he's limited skillwise as a driver and chances are he'll be driving something else in the not so distant future. As far as your comment that he's done better than most, i'd like to know who? Barrichello was far less mistake prone than Felipe and better than him in the rain. There are several drivers i'd rather see in that seat (Vettel, Button, Kubica, Heidfeld, etc) that would judging by thier past performances would do better than Massa and make less costly errors durning the race. So you're implying that GV knew he'd go airbourne and kill two spectators when trying to make that pass on Peterson? No it's not OK but he was at least attempting to make the pass and that's what racing is about.
Cheating is commonplace in Formula one and has been for years. It's laughable to think that Michael would not know that his car had traction control. As mechanically sensitive as he was, there is no way he wouldn't know, they wouldn't have to tell him. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules, MS wasn't above doing cheating and neither is anyone else in Formula One. He's no better than Alonso is in that respect.
I do not deny cheating exists in all forms of motorsports, and probably all professional sports. But Luis, there is a difference between trying go around the rules of a sport and breaking the law. This is breaking the rules vs breaking the law. According to the Italian newspapers, Alonso has agreed to cooperate with the Italian magistrate in return for not being prosecuted for being an accessory to industrial espionage. Certainly even one of the cars that Alonso drove, either at Renault or McLaren probably had something on it that would be a violation of the rules. I do not think the traction control on Schumacher's car constituted a violation of any law, only the rules. Say what you will, I see a major difference. Alonso broke the law, Schumacher did not.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. While not breaking any law it was immoral and against the rules and the spirit or the sport. Same with Alonso, who i'm sure didn't know he was breaking any sort of law like many of us didn't. Had he known, i'm sure he would have steered clear of the whole fiasco. If the police come and threaten to prosecute you or I we'd all do the same. Alonso was no more moral than MS was when he played his part in the cheating scandal. Other than the mass damper, i don't recall anything ever coming up illegal on any of FA's cars, even with McLaren. There wasn't even any proof that McLaren used any of the info other than to rat them out on the moveable floor.
Luis, my last comment on this, Alonso knew how, where, and when the Ferrari data was obtained. I know you like the guy, that's OK, but he isn't stupid. Do you think when Pedro pulled out the dossier he got from Coughlin that Alonso didn't know where he got a 700 page document with all the specifics about the F2007? You do not buy those at El Corte Ingles with your Mastercard. Fernando knew very well that he was breaking the law, so when he went to see Bernie and Max, he insisted on clemancy from within the sport, and when he spoke to the Italian officials, he received clemency for cooperation against his old team. Again, to me, breaking the rules and breaking the law are very different. I would feel the same exact way if Schumacher had done the same thing. No way I will ever see one team using an illegal traction control as being the same severity of industrial espionage. Additionally, it was proven and in the FIA's report that McLaren used the information concerning Ferrari's brake system to improve their brakes. They had to remove those improvements. And many people trackside to this day believe that McLaren is using some sort of launch control.
Ron, I believe, agree with and understand all that you say. I'm sure he knew where the info came from. I do however, dispute the arguement that he was aware that his part in the whole thing was against the law and did it anyway. Many people, including myself, did not know that cheating in a pro sport could get you arrested. ( baseball doesn't count ) Again, no one knows what any of the other drivers had done in the past in regards to cheating, because this is the first one than comes to light, doesn't make the one person that was involved any less moral than someone else that has cheated in the past. Just unlucky to have been caught.
The Italian judicial system is far from a democratic (and fair) system and prosecutes individuals based on how the wind blows. To infur that Alonzo's guilt is based on his agreement with the Italian magestrate to cooperate proves nothing about what Alonzo knew, or his guilt. I'm sure everyone remembers when the Italians tried to prosecute Frank Williams for murder that they loosly based on a racing incident.
What's immoral is Alonso going to Ron Dennis and telling him that he's either No1 or he'll give Mad Max emails about the Ferrari setups. Blackmailing your own team is immoral no matter how justified Alonso felt he was. Alonso was rattled and when he couldn't get his way he blew the whistle.
+1 They also tried to prosecute Patrese for murdering Ronnie Peterson at Monza (they should have put the ER doctors on trial instead). And just last year they tried to prosecute replica owners as counter fitters. Meanwhile the garbage in Naples piles sky high.
Frank Williams, b/c his engineers supposedly did a shoddy job shortening the steering column in Senna's car. take it for what it is.
Patrick Head, Adrian Newey and Frank Williams saying it was a steering shaft failure due to a badly done modification, that caused the accident.
Maybe, but that's not what the arguement was about. And, if you remember correctly Alonso recanted, took it all back and told Ron Dennis he didn't mean it. Ron Dennis called the FIA anyway. He blew the whistle, not Alonso. He knew it was the wrong thing to do.
Agreed, in that respect only though. Alonzo went and stamped his tiny little feet when he didn't get his way and ratted out his own team. Schumi would have never done that. FA and Schumi should not be compared, on or off the track Schumi is the better man.
