Please excuse the mediocrity until I get into a flattering car?!? Is that the new argument?!? Shunted aside would be more accurate
This is one thing that irks me about the Massa support argument. Whenever someone wants to make a point that Massa is not a good driver, it is done with a review of his past performances, his gaffes and comments made about him by those who should know. On the other side, it always seems to descend into... -You know nothing about racing and are too stupid/ignorant/naieve/green to know his talent -You are not a "real" Tifosi -You are talking out your ass, you know nothing, etc ...and now... -You are not good people and I know this because of how you treat Massa So how come it always seems to get so personal on your side? The argument just always seems to go "I think Massa sucks, because <insert stats>" reply -> "Yeah well you call yourself a Ferrari fan? You are obviously a clueless idiot! At least I know what kind of person and "fan" I am dealing with" etc, etc. All it tells me is that there apparently ain't much to argue on in terms of stats and figures. We all know it's patently ridiculous to say someone you've never met on the Internet is a bad person based on the metric of them not liking Felipe Massa or not saying something good about Felipe Massa - but I don't get why it always resorts to that. Is there really nothing more than "well he's a nice guy" in his favor? He's had some good races - I can grant him that. He's had some fast laps, noone can deny it. Why can't his achievements stand on their own without the added ryder of contempt bundled in by his supporters that anyone who isn't in their camp is deficient somehow?
i'd really like to know something Ron... where were you on the Massa love parade when he was driving for Sauber? you can't tell me he caught your eye, and you were thinking-- dang, that kid has talent, has so much potential, just wait til he gets to a top ride. honestly, here we all talk of the Vettel's of the world, even as they drive for mid/back marker teams. because it is apparent that they have talent. Can you honestly tell us that Massa was a top talent back in the days. I'm thinking you didn't pay much attention to him, come on admit it. Then he fallls @ss backwards into a seat in a Ferrari, and now he's your 'second coming of Shumi'. C'mon. you make an argument that Massa suddenly improves vastly after arriving at Ferrari. Can you not entertain, what would be common sense, that the Ferrari he's driving has a Sh!@% load to do with his so called amazing improvement...
Exactomundo Mike!!! Saying so called Massa bashers are not 'real tifosi' and that it shows what kind of person the bashers really are, in fact shows what kind of person those making those statements really are. funny huh.
for the first two races, Massa would've been heading for his plane pronto... Enzo would've been looking to whoop his behind all over the pit area!
Excellent post, I don't support Massa, but I do agree he is a good (not great) driver, just not WDC material, that's it.
Unless the subject under discussion is LH, in which case the argument is he can't be a great driver unless he demonstrates he can perform in a mediocre car!
I can tell you where I was: Aligning my resources to get his signature (which I did) and visiting the factory. And yes I was thinking, darn he is a super fast starter. But I also saw how he had a very hard time keeping the car on the road. Massa is good, fast and a superb starter. But he is no WDC in the making. Pretty lame argument. I was hoping you'd dig out some real stats, which I knew you'd have a hard time to. Alright so you compare Massa's time at Ferrari with Villeneuve's. No point in taking this any further.
Ron, I usually respect your opinion. Not so much this time. Massa and GV's numbers are comparable, true enough. You leave out the fact that the eras were totally different and a direct comparison is all but impossible. Put Massa in GV's car, he never wins a race, put GV in Massa's car he wins the title easily, I and many others feel. But that's just an opinion, so enough on that. Now please elaborate on how Massa did well against Raikkonen? He finished behind Raikkonen 11 out of the 17 races. I also disagree with your statement that he " took control" at the start of the season" either. It was a dead heat going into the Italian GP (only in a direct who finished in front of whom comparison, points is a different story, i'll get to that in a second) after which Kimi never finished behind Felipe again. Kimi scored more points that Felipe did, period. he did not "step aside to help Kimi win" he was out of contention. He simply didn't score enough points at crucial times during the season (Hungrary 13th place). I have nothing to say about his personality, i don't know him. I don't care if he's a nice guy, i care about him helping the team. As far as him improving the only thing that has improved is the team he drives for, he's still a bit wild at times. On to your other point about he not making mistakes in comparion to other drivers. For drivers to over step and crash, spin or whatever is natural. Mistakes are made by many drivers, no question. The problem here is that Massa makes them during the race while others tend to keep them confined to practice. If that isn't cracking under pressure i don't know what is.
Exactly Mike, since when do you have to support a driver you think isn't pulling his weight simply because he's with the team you support? You give him the benefit of the doubt but enough is enough at some point.
In 1975 I watched Gilles blow the entire field away in an IMSA undercard Pro Formula Atlantic race at the now defunked Ontario Motor Speedway. Everyone that was there that day and witnessed this race, new that he was something very special. He won the championship and shortly there after was contacted by Mclaren for a test in their F1 car. All this with very little sponsorship. He owned his own car and team and was an independent driving for himself on the verge of bankruptsy. His wife was ready divorce him over the sale otheir house so Gilles could go racing. The top 6 finishers were all professional teams with hired big name drivers. He then went to Europe and entered a European Formula Atlantic race and blew away all the Formula 1 regulars. James Hunt was beaten so badly, he decided he had to meet this kid Gilles and searched him out. The rest is history. I watched Gilles take the enemic double rear winged Ferrari to a third place at Long Beach and that car was a backmarker at best. Knowing where Gilles came from and the road he traveled to get there, to compare Massa to him is a sin. Massa could only wish that he could wear Gilles jock strap. Please don't insult Gilles with such an enemic comparison.
Did you know in 1979 at Watkins Glen, Gilles out qualified the entire F1 field by a full 9 seconds in the rain? Do you really think that Massa is capable of that? Please...
Did you also know that Gilles could have won the 1979 WDC, but elected to follow Ferrari team orders and not pass Scheckter as instructed at the Italian Grand Prix? Has Massa been in that position? I think not.
Yeah, this is what separates the best-evers from the greats. It was Friday practice (not quali) and destroyed a world champ, Scheckter, in the same car. He won that race from 3rd BY 50 SECONDS.
Sorry for the error. It was a practice session and I think Lafette jokingly made a comment that he must have cut the course somewhere. Gilles was a legend and his F1 stories pale no ones when making comparisons. Enzo loved this kid. He drove 11/10ths all the time. He could drag a mediocre Ferrari to the front when no one else could. His almost 3 full laps of side by side action with Arnoux at the Spanish Grand Prix in an inferior Ferrari is probably the best F1 dual of all time. The stuff legends are made of.
Now that I think about it, I believe that your are correct. It was the French Grand Prix. Things get a little tougher to remember at my age. I should probably be looking this stuff up before I post.
