Massa to file legal action on 2008 title?

This is a very good point, but who would he go after? I don’t think the FIA would be liable.

 

Public expect fair fights not cheaters.
Massa will earn some substantial money with this one.
Results won’t change fortunately because this would open a Pandora’s box.

 

Why should he earn money ?
The cheaters were discovered and punished.
That it happened one year after the facts rather than immediately after had no certain impact on the outcome of the championship.
As mentioned, if Alonso's win had been cancelled, it would have only made matters worse for Massa since it would have promoted Hamilton in that race.
And, in spite of what Massa says, removing results from others than the cheaters themselves is not common in any sport - and that's what Massa is asking for, that all competitors conveniently lose the points of the Singapore GP where himself failed to score any point.
Certainly, the cheating made the race different - but apart from the cheating team, there is no reason to consider it favored or disadvantaged one particular team or driver: all competed in the created conditions, and the fact that Ferrari and Massa failed to score has no reason to penalize others.
And claiming Massa would have certainly won the championship without the cheating is pure delusion - he may have won, because nobody knows what would have happened, but he may as well have finished in a worse position...

 

I guess Massa blew through his money and is now trying to play catch-up.

 

The public expects cheaters to be caught in the act. That didn't happen at Singapore.
15 years later, bygones are bygones.

 

You make very good points. Massa's argument is that the crashgate cost him the title.
He assumes that the rest of the season would had been the same if the plot had been uncovered immediatly, and the race annuled.
There is a lot of suppositions in his argument.

 

...and I'm pretty sure that's what a french court would say: Massa didn't lose the title at Singapour, no way.
If that race had been cancelled, the rest of the season could indeed have been completly different. Again, he lost a chance to fight for it ("perte de chance").
It is a matter with the FIA (where his former boss Stefano Domenicali works...) so probably for the French courts. And no french court would ever accept that he lost the title in Singapore; if one would, it would then be nullified in appeal. I know that this is what the french Law says, no way they would change the result of the Championship.

Massa might think that without the Singapore crash, he would have been World Champion, but this is wrong, it is a child's fantasy.
Without the Singapore crash, or with the Grand Prix nullified, the rest of the season might, and probably would, have been completly different; circumstances would have been different, teams might have acted differently, drivers might have driven differently, and results be completly different.
People should realise that you cannot just take one element out of a story and believe that all the rest would have actually stayed exactly the same. That's an assumption: it might have been exactly the same, but it might also have been completly different: who knows, since it didn't happen.

He has a claim for compensation, that's for sure (i.e: he lost a chance)...provided that the main witness, Bernie E. is ready to testify under oath...

Rgds

 

The case is filed or will be in UK Court

 

Strange, and interesting! Normally everything regarding the FIA should be brought in front of a french court. Massa and his lawyers might get rejected by the court, declaring itself "incompetent".
Perhaps the lawyers have already concluded that the perspectives under french law were not that good...they are getting worse in french Law when the delay between the contested fact (i.e: the Singapore Grand Prix) and the decision challenged (i.e,here, attribution of the World Champion title) is not "short": it would have been much easier had it all happened in the Brazilian Grand Prix.

If my memory serves me, etc...common law has something close to the french "perte de chance", called the "but-for causation" (or perhaps is it only in US law?).

We need more lawyers here!
One thing is sure, I shall follow the outcome and the legal analysis with attention.

Rgds

 

If (and that is highly hypothetical) a UK court would sentence against the FIA, I wonder how the decision would be enforced.

 

Most likely, they would have to declare themselves "incompetent".
I've checked; Felipe and his Lawyers have not sued yet: they have sent a "letter of warning" to the FIA, asking the FIA to answer before August 29th.
Depending on the answer, they will then sue.

Rgds

 

Personally I remain of the opinion that the ultimate goal of Massa is that he wants it to be written on paper, declared in court, that the 2008 season had manipulation in it. I don't think he's out there to take Lewis' trophy away from him, just wants actual acknowledgement that the FIA covered it up. It can then be argued what the correct course of action should've been for the FIA, nullify the Singapore result? Exclude Renault?

In the end Massa wants the acknowledgement and I'm sure a sizeable financial compensation.

 

I think Bernie only spoke to piss elton, elton was always talking crap about Bernie and he decided to piss him off....not sure if he expected this result!
As for the claim that the rest of the championship would have been diferent, i think it's bs. They were neck and neck and both needed every single point, so thete was no holding back from either of them.

 

The most logical reaction would have been to disqualify Alonso - ending in an even worse situation for Massa.
Massa quotes the case of Lance Armstrong, but no race where Armstrong was cheating had its results nullified - only Lance Armstrong's positions were deleted.

 

As i said before, sanremo 86 os the way to go for Madsa

 

The San Remo situation was completely different - Peugeot was excluded and could not compete, and it was later judged that this exclusion was not legit.
So the only solution was to cancel the results, because Peugeot (and Kankkunen) had been wrongly (according to the judgment) denied the possibility to compete.
Massa has not been denied the right to compete in Singapore, he just did not manage to get a result, while he was given the same opportunity as others.

 

Were swimming in full uchronia again... The position of a court regarding the Law is very simple: it is impossible to say that ONE single element taken away, the whole serie of successive elements would have stayed the same: they might, but they also might NOT (most probably), so no court will EVER state that Massa lost the title in Singapore (and, as said above by others, in actual fact, he did not...). Only a five years old kid believes that, and I'm sure his lawyers have told him so already.
Most probably, the court will consider probabilities, then calculate compensation. They will NEVER say that Massa is the 2008 Champion. Only that he lost a chance.
And that supposes the courts will accept to discuss the case, what I'm still not sure of.
(as an additional point, there is also the matter that one of the FIA representatives, Stefano Domenicali, is obviously in full conflict; that part will also be interesting)

Rgds

"Le nez de Cléopâtre, s'il eût été plus court, toute la face de la terre aurait changé" Blaise Pascal, "Pensées", 1670
"Cleopatra's nose, had it been shorter, the whole face of the earth would have been different". Blaise Pascal, "Thoughts" 1670.

 

I think you are right. Bernie is a mischivious sod, an accomplished s***-stirer.
His comment was made tongue-in-cheek, just to annoy Hamilton, who is the opposite of how Bernie thinks a multi WDC should behave.
To add to that, now Bernie claims advanced senility, saying he doesn't remember.
You couldn't make it up !!!

 

Yep, absolutely right. Massa has chosen the wrong comparison to illustrate his case.
7 Tours de France were not annulled, only the same winner was disqualified from the results 7 consecutive years.
The rest of the field kept their positions, trophies, rewards, and prize money.

 

The more I think about this, the more I wish I was a defense attorney against Massa. There is so many different angles that crushes his case.

Coulda woulda shoulda doesn't work Mr Massa
Lance Armstrong got stripped, the Tour de France is still on the records Mr Massa (as per William)
You had your chance to win Mr Massa
You had your chance for any points Mr Massa
You and your team screwed up by yourselves Mr Massa
Bernie is missing a few marbles Mr Massa
A punishment towards Renault was already given Mr Massa
There is no precedent for canceling events for a single cheater Mr Massa.

And the list goes on.

 

I cannot see on what basis. The F1 authority is in Paris. The offense happened in Singapore.
The team alleged to have cheated was French. The man behind the plot was Italian.
His accomplices were British and Brazilian.

 

I don't think Massa should pursue this further. I mean, it's already been so many years.

However, i find it interesting that he's not focusing on the WDC perspective, rather, monetary terms. In this scenario, with Bernie's admission few months ago, it does makes sense for him to pursue.

Ferrari is staying on the sidelines because it will not benefit them in any way. This is purely Massa's own fight. He must have gotten some really solid advice for him to pursue this. I mean, what does he have to lose here?

 

Loads of money !!! Do you think lawyers work for free ?

And I don't think Massa qualifies for judicial aid .

 

He definitely has money. FIA in a way admitted the screw up. Massa think he can win way more money. I get why he's pursuing this, but, I don't agree with him.

 

When ?