One thing's certain - LH losing the WDC to Massa 15+ years after Massa lost the WDC to LH on the last lap would be the best, the baddest, the most freaking awesome WDC finale ever. As happy as Alonso is having a competitive car again, that would trump that manyfold. Let's Go Go Go Felipe Baby !!
I'm sure there are people out there that want the results changed simply to strip Hamilton of a champion, I'm sure there are some want to claim a Ferrari championship regardless of how it's done, and I'm sure there are some that want things to just be left alone, regardless of being pro Massa or pro Hamilton.
Despite liking Massa a whole lot, I don't want the results changed. I do find the whole saga pretty amusing though, for various reasons.
That was communicative and intentional by the governing body. They sent a clear message to all about cheating. No reward. The fact that they did not award anything is a position they can take and is not against it’s own rules.
Yes, I understand the message, but why not attribute the wins to those who DIDN'T cheat during those years ? All the others who did the Tour de France during the Armstrong years did it for nothing; their effort isn't recognised.
Because there were strong indications that the discovered cheating was only the tip of the iceberg and that others (perhaps even the majority of) riders had cheated as well. It was common practise to test daily a few randomly selected riders plus the day winner and tour leader. It would have been fair if the #2 was also tested daily - if negative years later he would have been a justifiable winner.
Armstrong and his team were undetected for (7) years, because they used a drug programme well ahead of the detection methods of the time (like the Russian Olympic team). They were only found out later when the organisers got wiser, the methods improved, and previous years samples were tested. I don't think there has ever been cheating on that scale before, although others riders were caught, from time to time.
There was no systematic testing of the runner up while the tour leader was tested daily (plus samples set aside for later testing). So even if there were strong suspicions that other riders (including runners-up) were also cheating they were not regularly tested or tested at all on the day itself and also no samples set aside in storage. When detection methods were vastly improved later on, it was not possible to test the runner up in the same way as the tour winner had been tested. Declaring the runner-up as new winner by default was not deemed fair as the runner up was simply not as extensively tested as the winner.
Tour de France is the biggest joke. The whole field is flooded with cheaters, and all Lance Armstrong did was beat the next best cheaters. I don't even care that he cheated per se, it's the extent he went to cheat, and how he profited on it. Livestrong using his success as endorsement to fighting cancer, all to make a buck. The guy is a POS.
You are basing all your theories on hearsay coming from Ecclestone. So far, I haven't hear Massa making a move to contest the 2008 Singapore GP, but some enjoy stiring the mud to make headlines. There is nobody at the FIA claiming they knew that GP was fixed at the time. The FIA has never been asked to pronounce itself on the subject. When one team is found cheating it can be disqualified, as already happened; there is no need to cancel the race. Why don't you rather admit that the idea of depriving Hamilton of a WDC is itching you so bad, that you would support anything that would satisfy you ? You have shown your colours already on the night of the 2021 Abu Dhabi G, and you have never ceased since.
Still confused I see The headline of this thread, and the article in the very first post, states that "Massa is considering legal action". I didn't make that up. The REASON Massa is considering legal action, is a claim made by Ecclestone that the FIA knew ... during 2008 ... that all Singapore points should be erased. I didn't make that up either. I've never claimed that Ecclestone's word is factual; in fact, i've added qualifiers to just about every post i've made in this thread ... and i was among the first to suggest that we should be able to research the rule or statute mentioned. In contrast, you've been confused since this thread started! First, you thought that Massa was looking for free points from 2008 (he isn't). Then, you thought Massa was trying to blame his DNF on the orchestrated crash (he isn't). Now, you are pretending that Massa isn't considering legal action, and you keep pretending that Ecclestone didn't say anything about Singapore 2008 recently. You keep suggesting that I (or we) have made all this up Is your infatuation with Hamilton SO very deep, that you can't even entertain the possibility ... and the consequences ... that Ecclestone may be RIGHT? By the way, all of my statements concerning Abu Dhabi 2021 have proven to be correct ... including, most recently, the fact (verified by the head of the FIA) that Masi wasn't fired at all, but instead quit after 2021 (just as many of us already knew). ALL of the Hamilton fanboys were clinging to the idea that Masi was fired, as their last shred of evidence ... and they were all proven to be WRONG. I know, I know ... fingers in your ears, head in the sand, I made all of that up too
All you are arguing about is based on rumours, hearsay and gossips, to which you give too much credit, as if they were gospel. Call me when Massa take legal action against, and when Ecclestone is summoned to testify about his allegation. I certainly cannot be the only one who think this is bordering on farcical, and has no reason to exist. This is a typical case of woke revisionism.
william, let's try a "reset" if you're willing. The "news" of this thread is NOT: * There was an orchestrated crash at Singapore 2008. That's been known by the general public since 2009. * One team cheated ... big time, life-threatening, incredibly illegal and dangerous. Also, not "news". * Recently, Massa is looking for 2008 points to be added to his total (he's not). * Recently, Massa is trying to blame his DNF on the orchestrated crash (he's not). Instead, the "news" of this thread IS: * Ecclestone recently claims that the FIA knew about the cheating & orchestrated crash, before the end of 2008. * Ecclestone recently claims that the FIA knew, also in 2008, that all points from Singapore should be erased (but apparently kept that "hidden"). * As a result of Ecclestone's recent statements, Massa is now considering legal action. We can dismiss all of this "news" as fictional, wrong, make-believe, nonsense ... or whatever descriptor you want to apply. OR, we can entertain the possibility that Ecclestone MAY be right, and that Massa MAY have a case. Fair enough?
Agree BUT, Just imagine being Massa and discovering that a WDC while driving a Ferrari was close to be stolen by a plot on one race, What would be your reaction 15 years later ?
Exactly why Massa should look at all options currently! Any reasonable driver would explore this as Bernie has been more than open to describing in detail how this was ‘managed’!
I think for him the personal satisfaction to have this all exposed in public court will be quite a lot. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think it's about that for Massa. I don't think if/when he has won he'll wander over to Lewis' home, knock on the door and take the 2008 title home with him.
Same for me, Elton can keep his trophy, but i want the whole world to know he didn't win it, Felipe did.
But he did not; he could, perhaps, have won it at the end of the season; but who knows? If things had been different that day, a lot of other later events could also have been different. He could have driven differently later, being more ebullient, had an accident, whatever. Had the Singapore event happened at the last lap of the last Grand Prix of that season and robbed him of the title, I might see things differently. As they are, I'm sticking with the french legal concept of "perte de chance": He didn't lose the title, only a serious opportunity to contest for it. I don't do uchronia. Rgds
I think we need a TDF/cycling thread somewhere... some of the mechanical cheating too...they were doing infrared scans due to them hiding motors and batteries in the frames and powering the crank through the bottom bracket.
Using sustainable electrical energy is the future. That is not cheating but leading the way (many years before this was even considered in car racing). We should applaud that! .
