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Massini Report

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by jnk, May 6, 2018.

  1. jnk

    jnk Formula Junior
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    Nov 12, 2010
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    I see that it is quite common to list ones car with a Massini report. I am not interested in selling my cars but would be interested in getting a Massini report on my cars. Can someone point me in the right direction on how to obtain one of these reports.
     
  2. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
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    Marshall Buck
    Send a PM to Marcel Massini. He posts regularly on Fchat.
     
  3. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

    Jun 9, 2005
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    Really!?

    Just one question, why do you prefer a Marcel Massini than a real Ferrari certification?

    Reports are made for auctions cars, not for Ferrari. Ferrari has is own certification.

    Marcel what is this story? it s a joke of it s a fake? :)
     
  4. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    7,578
    Ferrari provides the technical and visual appearance of a car - but not much of its history once they rolled out of the factory gates while the Massini report list the entire history of it until today.
     
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  5. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

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    Actually Werner, it seems to me more logical in this way. I thought for a moment that this report was a copy consistent with that of Ferrari.
    However, it seems that the history of the vehicle should be an integral part of the Ferrari report and in all the details.
    Thanks Werner for this opinion.
     
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  6. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

    Nov 4, 2006
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    #6 Nembo1777, May 7, 2018
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
    His name is Walter and he has a bad temper so you are in trouble now;-)

    Hallo "Werner" see you in Monaco this weekend:)

    To go back to the initial question yes the factory provides initial specs, when and where delivered, to what dealer.

    A top historian such as Marcel has personal archives after huge amounts of data collecting and has created an individual file for each car with very precise data about its life from day 1 to today, so you need his contribution which will already include the factory's data.

    I do the same at a much more humble level for some models of classic Maseratis late 60's-70's just as Walter does for earlier Masers.
     
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  7. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    In most cases they don't have a clue how the car looked when it was completed - or last left the factory. It only gets worse when new players start working on these cars and they have no idea whatsoever how demanding it is to restore a Ferrari body. It is hard to believe how incorrect restorations have been performed in recent years. Several "mystery replicas" have turned out to be real cars with totally incorrect new noses. It is sad because the most beatiful cars in the world are turning into mongrels and nobody seems to care.

    There definitely should be a separate certificate for visual details, there are so many mongrels out there!
     
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  8. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

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    LOL :)

    Walter, Werner, is a good name. :)
     
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  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    In addition to the researched and known history of a Ferrari after it has been sold new, a Massini Report in comparison to a Classiche Book is more detailed regarding the technical specs. Where the Build Sheets were available there is a translation in Layman's terms of them. On a Classiche Red book of an Alloy 275 GTB/4 that I recently looked over there was no mention of the bodywork being alloy. An important omission. The Massini Report also picked up on the speedo being in KM/H when built. The Red Book also stated that the body had not been repaired whereas the Massini Report for the same car gave details of exact repairs to the body and identifying the panels replaced. A Massini Report also includes the identifying body numbers and checks/verifies them against those on the car. It also includes the suffixes to the chassis numbers such as 12345 GT or 0690 MDTR and the Assembly Numbers. A Classiche Book should include these.

    In my opinion the Classiche Report is too reliant on the information supplied by the applicant in the application paperwork and also the competence/knowledge of the Classiche Inspector which could be variable in the case of the inspection not being made at the Factory, which will be most.
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    What Steve said but may I add there have been issues with cars certified by Classiche that were little more than replica's, #0818 springs to mind because the original existed elsewhere but the person having it certified had some form of political leverage and so its not infallible. Where Massini differs is that he is not beholden to anyone else and will give an impartial view of any cars history and where he has found an obvious gap or serious issue, buyer beware. Any system battles the issue of balancing the needs of protecting the sanctity of the system with maximising cashflow and where those two issues clash, they will generally pick maximising cashflow.
     
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  11. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

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    Yes it s exactly what I wanted to make you understand... but not in English! :)
     
  12. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Dec 19, 2004
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    Whoa! Details please?

    Are you saying the factory certified a replica when the real car still existed, and they even knew about it?
     
  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    The original #0818 was sold new to (and raced by) Maranello Concessionaires (one of the four semi official works supported teams with NART, Filipinetti and Francorchamps that were supplied with pretty much the same cars as the works teams) with highlights incl. 2nd at Le Mans and wins at the Tourist Trophy and Paris 1000km in 1964, usually driven by Graham Hill with support from Innes Ireland and Joakim Bonnier. By 1966 the P2s, P3s and 412Ps had replaced the old 330P and it was sold to Englishman Dick Prothoroe, who was upgrading from his Jaguar E-Type Lightweight #EC1001/CUT7). After Drogo rebodied the car in P2 form, Protheroe entered it at Oulton Park for the 1966 Tourist Trophy, although he was sadly killed when he crashed in practice.

    Its mortal remains were now uncompetitive, expensive to repair and rather unwanted although they were snapped up by David Piper who removed the usable engine which later passed to Mike Oustromoff and finally Chris Murray in the USA. At some point in the 1970s, the engine and a spare transmission were built into a new #0818 which was confiscated by the US govt. in the mid 1980s (along with Murrays GTO #4757GT) when it was revealed he was a drug dealer. This car was bought by Violatti for his Maranello Rosso collection and was taken to Classiche two decades later to be certified and so it was although it must be noted that it was in the same spec it was when originally sold to Maranello Concessionaires so maybe it did meet the requirements?

    Whatever, the mortal remains (other than the engine) were sold by David Piper to the slightly odd ball Ferrari collector in Austria, Egon Hofer. This example spent many decades being slowly rebuilt (it would take an expert to assess just what was usable post crash) but by the time Violatti's car was certified there were two examples in existence, one containing every existing part (except for the engine), the other containing some Ferrari parts and the engine. The closure of Violatti's museum saw an investor buy both his 330P2/3 #0828 (with an odd P2/3/4 body) and both versions of #0818. Both of these cars were offered by Talacrest in December 2014 and in the case of #0818, the sales contract stated that

    Regarding 0818:
    The purchase 'includes' both 0818's and only both 0818's; the Violati and Hofer cars (and original purchase docs etc). John Collins has both cars.

    If the purchaser wants to keep the Classiche certified car as it is, the Hofer car will be destroyed.

    If the purchaser wants to merge the two cars, that will be arranged. Even by Ferrari.

    Whatever happens only one 0818 will remain."

    I am not aware that the cars ever actually sold and may well remain available to any interested qualified (circa 15 million quid) purchaser.
    Interesting pictures here
    http://www.myitshere.co.uk/DProtheroe/Ferrari/Ferrari.htm
     
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  14. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    A well known "specialist" from Italy (not connected with Ferrari S.p.A.) inspected the Hofer-car in Austria years ago. Hofer wanted to show him the documents he had for the car to explain its provenance. This Italian "specialist" was not interested.

    I heard later that -based on the report of this Italian "specialist"- the Violati car was officially declaired genuine by the Ferrari certification.

    Italians among themselves! Take your conclusions....
     
  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #15 miurasv, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
    I appreciate you were answering a question but this thread has gone completely off topic. I too have questions regarding 0818 but please can we discuss them in the dedicated 0818 threads, of which there are a few, and discuss the "Massini Report" in this thread. Thanks.
     
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  16. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

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    On the other side, if this thread was created, I guess it's not just about doing good publicity. Therefore is useful to reflect both opinions.
    Good and bad. No one is infallible.

    Question of art....it seems, more easier to recognise a Monet than a Ferrari. :)
    For Ferrari investment, you must to pay attention. Twice.
     
  17. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    0818 is no sensation at all. Check 6045, 5899 or ‘0846’ (and others) with falsified certificates and comments produced to manipulate history, values and auctions. Reality is not as simple as this tread tries to imply. Promotion is business, any report is promotion and interest is involved with any paid mandate and hired expert. And yes, with Ferraris and the values involved, you have to check not only metal and history yourself and thoroughly, but as well any expert and report involved and the interests behind.
     
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  18. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

    Mar 27, 2014
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    I think these dubious cars values are properly recognized in the market though. 0846 and 0818 would be significantly cheaper than much more pure comparable cars - all owing to the proper research done internally by Ferrari and externally by people like Marcel. For the truth I'm sure a reasonable consideration of facts from both sources is best, if there are contradictions then err on the side of caution as far as valuation goes. With the amount of info a layman can gather on these cars today there is no reason anyone should be ripped off when buying a classic Ferrari.
     
  19. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    EXACTLY

    “Who pays the piper calls the tune”
     
  20. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    A Massini report on Jims "0846" would no doubt be an interesting read!
     
  21. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    455
    You have to consider any report from a seller or an auctioneer as a marketing tool produced for the owner from hired and highly paid experts and Ferrari Classiche, Mr Massini etc are no exceptions. They both do such promotion not really for free (although sometimes guided on the same object from different interests). And I do think that by far not all dubious cars are properly recognised from the market but not just a few protected from the experts. However, always consider your own research first and you should know about your cars or the ones you intend to buy more than 'the rest of the world'. With this approach nobody will get ripped off.
     
  22. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

    Mar 27, 2014
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    Very true, those are all amazing points. I think its worth noting that in both of those cases the broker/auction company has a responsibility to the buyer and the seller. I worked for one such auction company and we never intentionally did anything to cover up blemishes on a cars history (the selling can still hide info from the broker though). Its not worth the trouble in the end and does more harm than good. I'm sure there are some unscrupulous dealers willing to misrepresent cars but in my experience they don't last very long in the industry. I think the moral of the story is to do your own research if you really want to be safe. If you don't have the time or resources for that, reaching out to someone like Marcel is the next best option.

    I'm sure Mr. Massini is keeping an eye on this thread, I'd be interested to know what his responsibility is to the owner of these reports? The buyer? The seller? Does he have control over how the information is shared once it leaves his hands? Hope this is not too prying. I trust he reports the facts as his research dictates but I'm curious as to what level of control he has over the info once its been delivered to a client.
     
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  23. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula Junior

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    It takes years to build a good reputation, only one misleading report to destroy it. Auction houses / external experts are not likely to risk their reputation for short term profit.
     
  24. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Ferrari’s Classiche program is a joke.

    Actually it’s worse. It’s an expensive, inaccurate and unfunny joke.

    Matt
     
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  25. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Rookie
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    Regardeless, Ferrari have done a pretty good job in raising awarness of the existence of classiche certification and hence many of the newcomers to the marque ask about classiche certification when buying a car. Despite my misgivings about it , for the relatively low cost it's a no brainer when selling an older car, it gives prospective buyers a sense of confidence in the authenticity of the car that in the buyers eyes only the factory can provide, with many taking the view that " if the report is done by the factory then it must be correct".
    I think it takes someone with a deeper appreciation of the marque to be aware of a recognised expert such as Marcel Massini and to commission a report, again money well spent if someone was contemplating transacting an interesting car ( or simply wanted to know the background of their own car).
    In some ways the 2 are complimentary, a history report will typically include everthing known about the life of car (owners, events, stories) whereas a classiche report "just" compares the status today with what was originally built.
     
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