Mathematics: Mod... | FerrariChat

Mathematics: Mod...

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by 134282, Dec 6, 2005.

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  1. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Has anyone ever heard of this before...? i just recently heard of it, but never knew about it, nor how it worked... i was told to go to my calculator in Windows and there would be a Mod button - sure enough, i clicked "view scientific on the calculator - and there it was...!

    What is this, exactly...? Where did it come from...? Who uses this function...? i used it to solve a problem - but only because i was told how to do it and it worked just as it was told to me...!* Amazing - but i don't understand... Math was never my thing...

    *334 mod 11 = 4
     
  2. shiggins

    shiggins Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2004
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    It's the remainder of 334/11.

    334/11 = 30 with a remainder of 4.
     
  3. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Keep it on Scientific Calculator setting... XDecimal, XDegrees

    Watch your calculator while you do this:

    (press) 334
    (Hold shift key, press) %
    (press) 11
    (press) =
    4
     
  4. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    Mod is a function used when a problem uses numbers which "cycle back around". BTW - you already know how to do this! You just didn't know what it was called. An example is the dial face of a 12-hour clock. If it's 9 o'clock, and someone says, let's meet in 4 hours, you know they mean 1 o'clock.

    (9+4) mod 12 = 1.
     
  5. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Yeah, the "modulus"... The result of my multiplications and additions was 334... i divided that by 11 and yielded 30.XXXXXXXX... Apparently, the modulus tells me to now multiply 30 even by what i just divided 11 by, which comes out to 330... Now my modulus is the difference between the original number with which i started (334) and the final number (330) - but who came up with this type of figuring and what purpose does it serve...?
     
  6. shiggins

    shiggins Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2004
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    Probably somebody who got pissed off solving for remainders in grade 5 math class.
     
  7. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    If you want to slow somebody's computer down, punch up

    numbers
    Mod
    numbers
    n! button
    n! button
    =
    n! button

    hehehehheeeeeeehehehe
     
  8. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Yeah, i've already done that... i just don't understand why this exists... i don't understand what purpose it serves... And though i now understand how it works, i have no idea why...


    Yin, i don't understand your example...
     
  9. jungathart

    jungathart Guest

    Jun 11, 2004
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    Cool!
     
  10. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    My example was that 9 o'clock plus 4 hours is "13 o'clock", but that's the same as 1 o'clock. Hence 9+4 mod 12 = 1.

    Our 12 hour system works on arithmetic mod 12. The military 24 hour system works on arithmetic mod 24.

    Same with a crankshaft and 720 degrees (2 full rotations for a complete 4 cycle). That's a system using mod 720 arithmetic. When a crankshaft is at TDC and the crank is rotated 725 degrees, this is the same as TDC + 5 degrees (rotating 720 degrees takes you back to the same crank and camshaft positions, then you went 5 degrees further).
     
  11. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    LOL...! i entered the wrong information the first time...! Now i got it... Thank you... :)
     
  12. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    I just realized why you're asking about mod 11...

    You need it to calculate the check digit in a VIN!!!

    That's yet another use. See modulus arithmetic is all over the place :)
     
  13. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    i'm curious as to how you even know that... :)

    ...but you're right... That's the ONLY time i have any sort of remote interest or desire to play with math... :)
     
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  15. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Darth, LoL!
     
  16. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    Just did some new math: (2+2) mod "NNO" = "VIN" :D!

    There aren't too many things that require mod 11 arithmetic, VIN's is one that I knew. It's you asking, so VIN makes perfect sense for that reason. Why I know that VIN's use mod 11 for the check digit goes back to that e-mail I sent you several months back.
     
  17. RichRowe

    RichRowe Karting

    Aug 1, 2005
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    Hi Carbon,

    To answer your question about who came up with this kind of thinking and what does it serve, well, I don't know who came up with it but its used for calculating a check digit (someone mentioned that but didn't go into details) and the most common use of this is in vehicle VIN numbers and also credit card numbers.

    The idea is to churn a serial number through a process that slightly modifies the number, and add that modification onto the end (normally). Then, because you can re-create the last digit from the rest of the number, this gives you a chance to 'check' the number hasn't been tampered with or just plain made-up.

    A good example is in credit card systems where you phone up the CC company and get the interactive voice response (IVR) prompt you for your card number. It does the math on the number you gave it and if you've mis-typed or are some kind of fraudster using a made-up number, the IVR itself knows straight away that there is no point even trying to look up your balance & account details etc because the number is duff.

    There is a complemetary function to mod, called div, which is just how many times the number you give it fully divides into the first number, rather than giving the remainder, like mod does.

    334 mod 11 = 4 (as stated previously)
    334 div 11 = 30

    That should help!

    Regards,

    Rich.
     
  18. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    BTW - Modular arithmetic was introduced by Carl Friedrich Gauss in his book Disquisitiones Arithmeticae published in 1801. However, people were using it before then (e.g. clock arithmetic as discussed), just not formally.
     
  19. pdiack

    pdiack Karting

    Nov 19, 2003
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    As an aside, I'm pretty sure credit cards use this function as well..to arrive at the 14,15, or 16 digit number.
     
  20. Webby

    Webby F1 Veteran

    Sep 12, 2004
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    Us computer programmers use it quite a bit. I forget why but I know we do.
     
  21. TcpSec

    TcpSec Formula Junior

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    For starters, it is used a lot in cryptography. For example, the SSL connection that your web browser makes for that online purchase also uses the same modular mathematics.
     
  22. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    You've got that right...! :)
     
  23. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Great...! More math...!
     
  24. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thank you...
     

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