Max on the Lewis effect on F1....Negative?

Yes, I do.

Let's put this another way: suppose his teammate was Michael Schumacher and his performance against him was the same as it was against Alonso. What would you say then?

I don't think it is relevant what kind of car he is driving, I think it is relevant how he performs against his teammate, especially when his teammate is the best driver on the grid. Everyone here slams Montoya because he was outperformed by Kimi in identical equipment. I have a low opinion of Massa because he has been outperformed in identical equipment by every teammate he has ever had be it Schumacher or Kimi or Heidfeld or Fisi.

The first rule of racing is "Beat Your Teammate" because he is the only guy on the grid in identical equipment. you can't draw direct comparisons between one driver and another if they are in different cars, there are simply too many variables. that is why the first thing that people in F1 - team managers, journalists, fans, everyone - looks at is performance relative to your teammate. And when you outperform the best driver on the grid in identical machinery, then that speaks for itself.

This is why I find the criticism that he hasn't driven sub-par machinery to be a non-starter. Massa has driven sub-par machinery most of his career and guess what, he was mediocre. Now he is in the best car on the grid and guess what, he has been beaten by both his teammates. What has changed?

If you put Hamilton in a Red Bull, he would be at least 6/10 a lap faster than either driver. Put him in an STR and he is over a second faster. What has been proven?

If it were so easy to beat Alonso in identical machinery then half the grid would be world champions by now. That is not the case, Alonso beat Schumacher to the title twice, no one on the grid today has done that even once. In fact, other than Kimi no one on the grid has proven himself to be even remotely competitive with Schumacher.

For Hamilton to come into F1, having done nothing other than straightline testing in an F1 car, and not only be competitive with Alonso but actually beat him in the point standings is nothing short of remarkeable. Hamilton is a major talent and he will prove himself to be the next great F1 champion since Schumacher. You can try to come up with whatever criticism you want, be it the fact that he hasn't driven sub-par machinery or he cost himself the title with a rookie mistake or whatever, the fact remains that every F1 team boss on the grid would sign him in an instant, including Ferrari, if they had the chance. Guys who know a hell of a lot more about F1 than you or I have been saying the same thing about Hamilton. This guy is a prodigy and he will inherit Schumacher's mantle as the dominant driver of his generation soon enough.

 

What IS remarkable about LH is that he's NOT WDC. Come on, he was crowned mid-season!

And, next year is going to be even tougher for him barring any unforeseen circumstances. Kimi has the bit between his teeth, Massa can be fast and win on any given weekend, the BMWs are up and coming, FA cannot be ruled out as a race winner, and who knows what Renault has up its sleeve.

Any comparison of LH to MS is premature.

 

I am glad you have hopped onto the Hamilton bandwagon with both feet - that is certainly your prerogative.

Guys who know a hell of a lot more about F1 than you or I? Please speak for yourself.

I don't know why you are bringing up Massa.......what does he have to do with this discussion? If my argument doesn't make sense to you, then there's no point discussing it any further. The simple matter is that you have jumped onto the bandwagon, I have not. I respect your choice, I ask you respect mine.

 

What is he smoking? Lewis didn't even win the WDC, so I don't know what he's even intimating. Like most have said, the field is very competitive among a few drivers/teams, so how is this anything like Schumacher? Next season will be even wilder without traction control.

Whatever...he doesn't even make sense.

 

The best driver in the best car is not good for the sport?

IMVHO it is the natural progression of things. The best driver wants to be in the best car and the team with the best car wants the best driver. When the best driver is not in the best car everyone is always second guessing the results.

When the best driver is in the best car they dominate. Then the rules change to hopefully give another team a chance at having the best car.

Let us celebrate when the best driver and best car hook up. It usually doesn't last very long. (Schumi being the notable exception.)

My hpoe is always that the fastest driver in the fastest car wins. When this is Ferrari I am very happy.

 

I was contrasting the fact that a lot of folks who seem to think that Hamilton is simply the beneficiary of being in the right car at the right time also seem to think that Massa is WDC material.

My point is that Massa is clearly an example of a driver in the right car at the right time. He did nothing in midpack cars to suggest that he is any great talent, including failing to outperform his teammate in any year. He joins Ferrari and he does nothing more than Rubens or Irvine did before him. I fail to see how anyone can think he is WDC material.

Lewis, on the other hand, jumps straight into a top-level ride, having done no testing other than straightline driving, prior to this season. He is immediately competitive with, and ultimately beats, his teammate, the defending 2-time WDC.

I hope this illustrates why I think so much more highly of Hamilton than I do Massa. If you can't beat your own teammate, then it is pure folly to think you can become WDC.

 

+1

Can't argue with this logic.

 

LOL. There's a first, Phil

 

Are you referring to the fact that YOUR POST was logical?

The fact that I can't argue is well established.

 

Frankly I think it is Max Mosley who is bad for F1 and not any of the drivers.

This season has made a mockery of the organisation running the sport and in no way is that Lewis Hamilton's fault - he just happened to be the talented newbie who was caught up in the middle of it.

Also IMHO anyone complaining that it is somehow wrong that Lewis got straight into a top car without having to prove himself in a worse car is complete BS! Has it not been standard practice for football teams to take on teenage rookies for generations? Was it somehow wrong for Maria Sharapova to win Wimbledon at age 17? Why then should it be wrong for F1 teams to look down the ranks to karting and the like to talent spot and then groom that talent to drive for them in the future?

The thing that surprises me is that A1 GP doesn't seem to be any more popular despite the fact that this season in F1 has been one where more than ever we've had debates centred around the cars technical prowess rather than the drivers' ability.

 

If you guys cannot understand why it is BETTER for us spectators to watch a talented newbie prove himself in a non-top team ... then I give up.

I guess you just like watching cars drive around in circles and the same car winning all the time. I don't. I loved watching Michael Schumacher in the early days in the Ferrari because the Ferrari was a piece of cr@p and you could very much see his skill as he performed miracles. As soon as Ferrari rediscovered how to make a good car ... MS had to drive HALF as good ... and thus no longer was he fun to watch.

Thus yeah lets spend the next 10 years watching LH cruise around driving at the same level as a London taxi driver (ie competely unchallenged) ... because his car is so dominant. Yep it is almost that easy when the car is that good, and we all know (except for complete fnckwits) that there is only ever at the most 4 competitive cars on the grid on any F1 race ...

So yes he deserves to win, but heck I also want to see him develop into a completely awesome driver, not just a very good driver. I want to see him wring the absolute cr@p out of some piece of **** and perform miracles ... and simply amaze me. That will never happen as he sits in the awesome McLaren ... the car itself is many seconds faster per lap than most of the field (all race long).

Obviously eventually the cream rises to the top ... but then it becomes boring, atleast after the nth WDC.
Pete

 

He was probably referring to guys like Jackie Stewart, Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher. How many World Championships do you have by the way?

 

are you saying then that SF werent a top team when MS joined them ?
if so then you could use the same arguement about McLaren too - when FA and LH joined they were coming off the back of the worst McL season for many a long year

 

you can add Stirling Moss to that list too

 

Yes but they made a good car (McLaren that is) and thus FA and LH did not have to work as mard as MS did ... or atleast MS appeared to.

Basically when MS started at Ferrari they were stuck in at most 3rd place in the championship and the '95 car was a dog. I really enjoyed MS wringing the neck out of it and making it fly way faster than it ever should have. That is what I am talking about.

So yes McLaren might have had a poor 06 season, but there 07 car was the best car on the grid ...
Pete

 

Two points I just thought of:

a) Max Mosley is stuffed full of it. I guess if he were living back in the fifties, he would be decrying the fact that Juan Manuel Fangio was winning so much.

b) I would like to remind those who hate Massa so much that he did, in fact beat his teammate in Brazil; anybody who thinks Kimi really passed him must be on some pretty good drugs.

 

I think the problem is that the cars are so technically advanced today that a guy like Nico Rosberg or Robert Kubica CANNOT win races unless the front guys crash out. An up-and-coming great driver has no chance in inferior equipment. The banning of traction control may help with this issue (won't hurt), but F1 is such a different animal today that you won't see a Senna-like performance from a young driver in a crappy car without an extraordinary set of circumstances allowing him to get ahead of the best cars.

 

Senna3xWC
"Let's put this another way: suppose his teammate was Michael Schumacher and his performance against him was the same as it was against Alonso. What would you say then?"

I would say the exact same thing.

Senna3xWC
"This is why I find the criticism that he hasn't driven sub-par machinery to be a non-starter. Massa has driven sub-par machinery most of his career and guess what, he was mediocre. Now he is in the best car on the grid and guess what, he has been beaten by both his teammates. What has changed?"

Again with Massa? Our discussion has absolutely no connection with Massa.

Senna3xWC
"If you put Hamilton in a Red Bull, he would be at least 6/10 a lap faster than either driver. Put him in an STR and he is over a second faster. What has been proven?"

Absolutely nothing has been proven because this is completely a theory.

Anyways, you believe what you want to believe about him, I'll stick to my own thoughts. Don't talk about the guy as if what you are saying is fact, because it is so far from it at this point.

 

Are you inferring that in order to know anything about F1, you must have a WC? So I guess we should all assume that every single WC is a student of the sport by knowing about it's complete history, and also follows the sport today as their primary passion.

 

+1

 

No, what I said was that I agree with Ted that guys like Stewart, Hill and Schumacher know more about F1 than him, you or I, not that someone must be a WC to know ANYTHING about F1 as you are suggesting I said.

In the interest of full disclosure, I admit that I have not administered an F1 equivalent of the SAT to them. However, based on the fact that they were in the actual sport, at the highest level, with various teams, have countless contacts and are still heavily involved (maybe not so much with regard to Hill), I prefer to put more faith in their assesment of Hamilton's abilities than yours. No offence, it's just my opinion.

 

The fact that Massa comes up in so many threads is not coincidental.

 

None taken. If you need someone else's opinion to validate your own, then those guys would be the ones to listen to, I suppose.

 

Hardly. If you were in Kimi's place how hard would you push it in qualifying and during the opening of the race?
1) Massa wanted pole for his home GP. OK so you put in your normal 100% but if you don't get the pole so what? If it looks like you could win championship you only need to tuck in behind Massa and then take the win toward the end of the race.

2) There's no need to try to beat Massa at this point. Like it or not Ferrari always had and always will have team order whether it's admitted or not. Kimi played it safe and then stretched his legs only as much as he needed to in the last race. If LH had done the same he would have been champion instead of Kimi. But, he didn't and because Kimi played it safe he won.

3) I honestly believe that even if there weren’t team orders Massa is the kind of individual that would have handed over the victory to Kimi as he wasn't in a position to win the championship. Once again, there was no need for Kimi to beat Massa in Brazil. That had already been done before they had even gotten to the track. Kimi was the point’s leader (for the team) and as long as LH was out of a championship bid the Ferraris would work together for Kimi to win the championship.

Now, I also believe that Kimi would have let Massa take the win if it looked like LH would have been in a position to win the championship. I.E. if Hamilton had tucked in behind Alonso and just stayed in fourth I do think Kimi would have let Massa take the home victory and let him tie Emmo for the back to back Brazilian win.

My personal view of Massa is very high as an individual. I think he'd make a wonderful neighbor and a great friend. I also think he's made a lot of progress with his driving but, I still don't think he's the level of Kimi, Alonso or even LH.

If Kimi and Massa were tied for the WDC coming into the Brazilian GP I have no doubt Kimi would have won that race outright. But, they weren't tied in points. Why? Because Kimi, even with his early stumble after the first race beat Massa when it counted. Massa's a wonderful guy but that's not why they run the races.

No drugs just some green tea at the moment.

 

+1

Pete