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Max Verstappen

Discussion in 'F1' started by CRG125, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. RobertJRB

    RobertJRB Rookie

    Feb 8, 2012
    38
    McLaren was loose from 2013 on, after Hamilton left. They were second in 2010, 2011 and third in 2009, 2012. Not the result a loose team would reach.
    Both Hamilton and his teammates in those years won races.

    One way or another. Hamilton surely is a great driver but as he only drove in top teams with one of the best or the best car it stays really hard to judge how good he really is.


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  3. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    7,915
    +1 agree
     
  4. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,409
    Are you using the word "loose" as to indicate a car with an inherent oversteering composure, or in some other manner ?
     
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  5. RobertJRB

    RobertJRB Rookie

    Feb 8, 2012
    38
    No in an reaction to KTU’s comment where he uses the word “loose” to show how good Hamilton really is by winning races with that loose car.
    Now you ask me I wonder myself how it was ment.


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  6. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran

    Oct 13, 2001
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    Seems that 90 percent of any race car drivers success is getting the owners of the fastest car to give you that seat because they recognize your talent.
     
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  8. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
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    Fixed
     
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  9. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
    FRANCE
    "The problem with Renault is that they are French"
    Now, being French myself, I might suffer from the same handicap, so let's hope my memory is still serving me well nevertheless (?)
    if the problem would be "being French", it should therefore be established by their palmares, or lack of, in the last 30 years.

    1991: the V-10 Renault engine is a worthy contender to the title
    1992: World Champion with Williams
    1993: World Champion with Williams
    1994: contender to the title until the last race
    1995: World Champion with Benetton
    1996: World Champion with Williams
    1997: World Champion with Williams
    2005: World Champion as a constructor, chassis and engine
    2006: World Champion as a constructor, chassis and engine.
    2010: World Champion with Red Bull (as an engine provider)
    2011: World Champion with Red Bull
    2012: World Champion with Red Bull
    2013: World Champion with Red Bull.

    Mercedes, as an engine provider, was, during the same time bracket, Champion in 1998, 1999, 2008 and 2009. So 11 titles for the french against 4 for the germans; considering only the results, I'd rather be French.
    If we add the titles since 2013 (and not including 2020 even if...) it is 11 against 11. That is a draw, but I still rather be French.
    Especially as my family has been German twice, from 1870 to 1918 and again from 1940 to 1945...living exactly three miles from the German border, that I still cross often (except during the Covid Quarantine), speaking the langage, having german friends; I'd still rather stay French.

    But of course, the truth is that the Mercedes team in Formula One is German only in the name; it is based in Brackley, built on the former Brawn team (itself built on the former Honda team, which is the former BAR Team, itself the former Tyrrell team); the engine division is based in Brixworth and is the former Illmor.
    Outside of the name and the board of directors to whom Brackley report, it is more or less as british as Williams or McLaren are.

    Rgds
     
  10. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Jun 10, 2010
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    Sainte Colombe, France (near Lyon)
    Full Name:
    Jean-Michel Savary

    Good recap, thanks
     
  11. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Mercedes was'nt a top team when he went there, i think they were the 5th best team. He still won races. Also you have to remember, a driver can prove himself in any car, whether a top car team or not. Gasly went to a top team, didn't perform, Bottas has been with Mercedes since 2017, he finished 3rd and 5th in the championship first two years. At one point Hamilton went undefeated in wet races 5 years straight. So fact is, a great driver will shine no matter what team he drives for.
     
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  13. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Dec 28, 2005
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  14. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Nice stats, but I notice that Renault successes have all been obtained through British teams.
    I know that Renault engines come from Viry-Chatillon, South of Paris.
    But, even when competing as a team, Renault is based in Enstone, UK, in the old Toleman and Benetton premises.
    So it can be argued that, by virtue of its history and location, the F1 team is more British than French, no?
    In that case, it's no different than Mercedes-AMG with its British DNA, as you explained. ;)
     
  15. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
    FRANCE
    It's still a bit more french than Mercedes AMG: at least the engines are fully French, even if these days there is nothing to brag about (except that it is working slightly better in the McLaren now).

    You know as well as I do that from 1977 to 1985, the team was fully French and based in France; they came very close to the title in 1983, but lost to Brabham and BMW, or, according to some, more precisely to Badische Anilin und Soda Fabrik, aka BASF, a chemical company which was manufacturing the "petrol" for the Brabhams (a chemical company manufacturing petrol? Mmmmh...).
    BMW and BASF? this time it WAS the Germans indeed.
    (Let's not forget Gordon Murray and Bernie...)

    Rgds

    (And then in 1984, 1985, 1986 you had the TAG-Porsche engine, which was more german than the Mercedes of this day, designed by Hans Metzger, built in Germany, etc...)
     
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  16. Beau365

    Beau365 Formula 3

    Feb 27, 2005
    1,171
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    Full Name:
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    Yes - Hamilton simply had to wait until Lauda's promise of their Hybrid Winner was delivered.
    Lauda was always a man of his word.

    Marketing Gold and the rest is history.
     
  17. RobertJRB

    RobertJRB Rookie

    Feb 8, 2012
    38
    I don’t say he is not a great driver, only try to explain its hard to judge how good he really is and how he compares to other good or great drivers. He simply didn’t drove any bad car.
    About the merc being the 5th car on the grid in 2012. As they were just starting two years prior and developing heavily its not that fair to compare the 2012 car to the 2013 car. I mean if it was possible both Rosberg or Schumacher would have taken the team further on the grid. Both of them have proven before and after to be able to.

    About the 5 year undefeated in wet races. Has to do with skills indeed but don’t forget he still had the fastest en most steady car of the field and during the GP it didn’t rain all the time. Those stats don’t mention the dry or semi dry laps during this race were he had the advantage of the Mercedes.

    For example Brazil 2016 it was Verstappen who stoot out head and shoulders above everyone in the rain and really took of. Yet it was Hamilton who won that race after three safetycars periods and Verstappen falling back to 16th. Looking only at the results doesn’t say that much.


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  18. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Yes, F1 team management look for the best drivers and give them opportunity. This has happened since the beginning of F1, same thing with Senna - Ronn, Schumi - Todt etc
     
  19. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Statistics shows the lowest team Schumi drove for was Bennetton, they were 4th best team before he came. Hamilton lowest team was Mercedes, 5th best team before he came. Both still won races. I would have to disagree with you that Hamilton never drove a bad car, as Alonso said, Hamilton did great to win in the 2009 car which was not good.
    Hamilton has already displayed many outstanding wet wins and poles. No need to say he had a good car as rain is the great equalizer. Are you gonna say Senna's wet races with Mclaren were lessened because he had the best car? Or Schumi's wet wins were lessened when he was in the top Ferrari?
     
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  20. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
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    The greatest of Senna's wet wins was Donington 1993; he didn't have the best car. The greatest of Schumi wet wins was Spain 1996, and he didn't have the best car either...

    Rgds
     
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  21. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    [
    Multiple F1 drivers have won wet races without the best car, Fisichella, Panis, Hill etc. There is no need to use this as the "only" way to measure a driver as it has been done multiple times by many drivers. Hamilton's 2008 British win was one of the greatest drives. Neither Senna nor Schumi won every wet race for 5 years straight as Hamilton did, but they are still great. I choose not to pick one success stat and make it the "only" way to judge driver skill. You have to look at a drivers whole career.
     
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  22. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
    FRANCE
    Right. So let's start, for Senna, with Monaco 1984, then Estoril 1985. Sorry, and I'm no Senna fan, but compared to these two, Lewis pales to insignificance...

    Rgds
     
  23. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    It's your right to disagree with Senna's team mate Berger, or Schumi's team mate Barrichello, when they say Hamilton is at their level or greater, but I won't.
    However I agree that Senna was special, one of the greatest.
     
  24. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
    FRANCE
    #1896 nerofer, Sep 25, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
    You have been trying for days to force us to accept that Lewis is one of the greats; perhaps he is, but only by the numbers. I am not belittleing his achievements, but unfortunately for him, be it because he had had the best car for too long, or because he has been protected too much by the management and had never had a challenging team mate these last years, there is no aura auround him, and he will never be a legend. And this will never be, unless he accepts Max Verstappen for team mate and beats him.
    This is something that is not built by the advice of Berger and the like, but by the public. You might write about his greatness "ad nauseam" (which, by the way, you are close to achieve, that is you are making him a disservice by trying to force upon us how great he his) the plain bottom line is that, despite his results, which I am the first one to acknowledge, we don't believe he is one of the greatest because he has not achieved legendary status.
    And, as long as he won't have Max Verstappen in the same car and beat him, he never will. Despite the numbers. And despite your desperate attempts. It is the public who decide. In the U.K, for years and years, when the police arrested you, they asked "Who do you think you are? Stirling Moss?" That's a legend. In France, even during the nineties (Yes...) it was "vous vous prenez pour Fangio?" That's a legend. Someone who had achieved the almost impossible against serious odds. You might write about Lewis for years, he has not reached that statuts. He has not fought serious odds. It has been too easy for him. Furthermore, when put under pressure by Button or by Rosberg, he has been barely average. A legend he is not. He doesn't need to reach 150 Grand Prix victories to be among the greatests, he need some serious odds to beat. Life has been too easy for him.
    That's simple...

    Rgds
     
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  25. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

    May 30, 2012
    1,648
    Again, you are free to think what you want about Hamilton. We both have passion we share as F1 fans.
    You say i have been trying for days for you all to accept Lewis as great, its no different than fans here that try for days to get me to accept he is not great. I post here because i enjoy the knowledge the fans have here and its entertainment for me. I knew he was great and would be a legend when i watched his rookie year, you don't have to agree, again this is entertainment for me. I'm not trying to force anything.
    You speak about Hamiltons team mates. Scumi's team mates look like F2 drivers compared to Hamiltons. Hamilton beat 2 world champion team mates, Scumi 0 champions, Senna 1. Why does he have to beat Max Verstappen? Riccardo beat Max, do you think of Riccardo as legendary? Do you dismiss Schumacher for not having Hakennin or Alonso as team mates? How do you know life/racing has been easy for Ham? Do you have any insight on what he and his father went through? Fangio never drove a midfield car, won all is championships with a top team. Why is he not penalized as Hamilton? Any F1 driver will tell you winning titles is not "easy", ask Bottas, or Barrichello.
     
  26. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
    FRANCE
    e sa
    Lewis best season in Formula One has been the first. Yes, I do mitigate somewhat (not "dismiss") my appreciation of Schumacher's achievements by his refusal to have a team-mate with equal status and treatment: when he was given the opportunity to stay for 2007, but with equal status to Kimi, he choose to retire. And Bernie Ecclestone said the same: that it is a bit disappointing. But Schumacher's legendary status comes from what he has acheived with Ferrari: five consecutive championships, no mean fact. They have been trying to win another one since 2007. That's his legend.

    Rgds
     
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  27. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

    Dec 19, 2011
    1,047
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Rennie Stein
    #1899 MrGrigio, Sep 26, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
    I’m sorry ktu but Lewis can never rank as an all time great. In fact, your ignorance of F1 history is so overwhelming that I had no choice but to respond, despite not posting on here for years.

    Lewis may become a champion of statistics but will never be a true champion like Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna or Schumacher or even Alonso.

    You know that saying – if I had to explain it, you would never understand. Well that applies here.

    I WAS a huge fan of Lewis and I still think his debut ranks as the greatest of all time. You don’t run against Alonso in your debut season without being very special, even if you had the team boss’s favouritism (btw, Mclaren is my favourite F1 team and Ron Dennis is my favourite team boss). I also think his title defence in 2009 in the MP4-24 when he won in a car that was very poor at the start of the season as also remarkable.

    What Lewis lacks is any sense of grace and to speak about discrimination and F1's lack of cultural diversity demonstrates his lack of awareness, in particular how he got into F1 in the first place. Lewis is very much a revisionist.

    F1 is a meritocracy- always has been, always will be. F1 didn’t care about the race or the nationality of Fangio, or Fittipaldi, or the Rodriguez brothers or Reutemann or Piquet or Senna when they arrived in the sport. Sport doesn’t care about colour, race or nationality- it just cares about performance and talent. For decades, F1 has been searching for an Asian champion to little success.

    People (and Lewis himself no less) tend to forget that he was groomed to be a Mclaren driver from age 10. An old white team boss sponsored and supported his journey through to the top echelon. I would probably add that everyone was searching for the ‘Tiger Woods’ of motorsport and Ron found him. To now rewrite his own history as a battle against race and discrimination when in fact, his race and class worked in his favour as very duplicitous. In fact, I doubt any rookie would’ve got the same level of support as Lewis got when he debuted against Alonso in 2007. You could almost argue that it was Alonso who got discriminated against. This is where Lewis has his numerous detractors.

    Lewis has never eclipsed a top-flight driver – he didn’t wipe the floor against Alonso, Button or even Rosberg. At BEST, he was slightly better in a couple of seasons. Senna ran against the BEST driver in his team (Prost in a Mclaren) and narrowly won in 1988 and comprehensively beat him in 1989. Berger was no slouch either, easily a top 4 driver and Senna completely dusted him. And Senna was never less than THE driver in the rain and would’ve won every wet race bar Spain 1992 except for reliability/or accident.

    Furthermore, in 2012, the MP4-27 was probably the best car overall and a true great would’ve got that car a championship or very close to it. Instead, it was Alonso who took a dog of a car (F2012)to the cusp of a championship. Not Lewis!

    To also use the argument that Schumacher never had a top-flight team mate sadly indicates that you have no idea of the actual history of his tenure in F1. Firstly, I would argue that when Schumacher joined Benetton, it was a top three team – Ferrari in 1991, 92, 93 and 94 were in in complete disarray. Secondly, Schumacher either won or fought to the wire in every championship except in 92, 93, 96 and 2005 during his first stint in f1. That’s from 1992 to 2006 – over 15 years at the very top of F1. Thirdly, Schumacher changed how drivers approached F1 like Stewart and Lauda changed F1. Stewart and Lauda were the first of the modern champions, using brain over brawn. Schumacher was the next evolution, combining brain with supreme athleticism. Lastly, I wouldn’t even bother looking at Schumacher’s comeback stint given he was never the same driver after his motorcycle accident in 2009 damaging arteries to the cerebellum.

    Lewis Hamilton is an excellent driver……..but he can never be admitted in pantheon of driving gods.
     
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  28. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,724
    FRANCE
    We should stop discussing Lewis Hamilton in a thread that has another topic and purpose, something that happens too often; Lewis here, Lewis there...this is a thread about Max Verstappen.

    Rgds
     
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