Maybe only a GM designer/engineer of '60s can answer this... | FerrariChat

Maybe only a GM designer/engineer of '60s can answer this...

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by bitzman, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie BANNED

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    I was trying to remember what Chevy was showing to enthusiasts around mid-60s and somewhat embarassed that I was a devotee of cars Bill Mitchell was showing, like the Mako Shark II (revolving license plates, a la James Bond) and also the Corvair Monza GT (rear engined instead of mid-engined), and other show cars with 1.)red metalflake paint 2.)pin stripes 3.)simulated knockoffs, etc.
    But now after reading some websites about developments out at the Milford tech center, sites mentioning Frank Winchell and Jim Musser, it reminded me that at the same time Mitchell was showing the glitzey show cars, behind the scenes they were working with Jim Hall of Chaparral , developing mid-engine race car prototypes that were sent down to Midland, to Hall's private Rattlesnake Raceway and tested, whereupon if they were faster than Jim Hall's prototypes, the design would migrate to Hall. So in essence, it seems that they had a two-tiered program--one was the razz-ma-tazz heavy-on-bling show cars that were obsolete engineering wise, and one was the secret race car development program. The puzzler to me--looking back over 40 years-- is that the race car engineers didn't seem all that interested in winning, more in just trying out new ideas like the torque converter trans, and some of these new ideas is what broke, letting the technically inferior Fords win at leMans, etc. . Is there any ex-GMers out there who can confirm my opinion?
     
  2. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie Owner Rossa Subscribed

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    you should pm john, aka, yello430
    he recently retired from gm as head of the cadillac design team.
     
  3. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ Silver Subscribed

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    I would observe that GM supported a number of different forms of racing. Every thing from stock cars to road racing and Can-Am plus drag racing to. Woodward Avenue was one of the better known 'test tracks' and they also built a drag strip at Black Lake for the 1969 press preview. There was a lot of engineering experimentation like 180 degree headers or two spark plugs per cylinder or Hemi cylinder heads. Bore stroke combinations and certain 'off road' equipment.
    GM wasn't in the racing business; they supplied parts and knowledge. It was up to the racers to utilize all that support the most effective way they knew how.
    Much of the stuff on the show car side was built for the 'GM Brass'. The eternal conflict was styling vs engineering. The engineers were usually stuck with making some strange styling ideas actually work. It was not one big happy family...
    CH
     
  4. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ Lifetime Rossa Owner

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    You have to remember that during that time frame,GM was officially not involved with racing in any form,due to the AMA ban.However,the Eng. teams would work on,the hot stuff secretly and get it out to the private racers,including Jim Hall's Chaparral team,the NASCAR guys (Smokey Yunick),LeMans Corvettes,and the drag racers.All under the table.Mitchell's Corvettes were of his own doing,and as stated,was always at odds with the Engineers.That's why the '63 split window didn't even last a whole year,Duntov was able to go over Mitchell's head,and kill it.Those two were not admirers of one another.

    So it really had nothing to do with "not wanting to win".Those Engineers were as competitive as anyone.They just couldn't "officially" do it.

    And let's not forget,Mr. Mitchell installed a Ferrari engine in one of his Firebirds!!!Talk about taking leave of your senses :)

    Forgot to add.....I wasn't there in the '60's!!! Started in the '70's
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
  5. bitzman

    bitzman F1 Rookie BANNED

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    Of course in all the Corvette histories, Duntov is played up as "father of the Corvette" when in actuality he came along after the Corvette already existed, as "boulevardier" a nice car to drive to the Bloomfield Open Hunt Club but not good for the track. to his credit he developed it as a raceable car.

    But as to the war at GM between the Engineers vs. the Stylists (before that word became disliked, in favor of "designers") I get the impression that out at the Milford Proving Grounds Frank Winchell and Jim Musser were doing the real work on racing while at GM Tech Center they were doing stuff that was more public but also more frou-frou (I don't know what that means but it sounds fun to say).

    Maybe it was the failure of the Gran Sport Corvettes, the way Duntov got slapped down for trying to initiate such a large program (100 would have to be built for it to be a production car) without getting approval of the high brass. I will admit his XP-882 mid-engined prototype and the CERV II 4wd mid-engine prototype seemed modern in concept but comapred to what Winchell and Musser were doing, were already old hat.

    So can you confirm my opinion that Duntov who was a product of pre-war training, was marginalized as time went on? In other words, if GM had decided to put him in charge of working with Jim Hall , they would have had not much in common?

    PS I know Woodward. I grew up 4 blocks from there and spent many a high school night cruising Woodward between Ted's Drive In and the Totem Pole, saw several interesting GM show cars being snuck out there by the scions of the Captains of Industry....
     
  6. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie Owner Rossa Subscribed

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    not much has changed since then!:)
     
  7. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    Until the mid-70's GM engineers could get small projects approved that did a lot of "nutballl" things. There was a small car with a scotch yoke engine and lots of other interesting engineering concepts, like a mid-engine Firebird, and countless others. Duntov's CERV's got most of the publicity, but there were lots of other things going on at the time.

    It was seen as a way to give engineers experience in managing programs and budgets, and it also eventually came up with a number of innovative gadgets. It not only provided learning for the young engineers, but it made the GM of that time a really fun place to work.

    That all came to screeching halt in the mid-70's, but prior to that, if you could show that there was some learning to ge gained and that it could apply to the company there was a chance you could get a small amount approved to go out and do innovative things. The objective wasn't necessarily to win races, it was to learn something and figure out if what you learned could apply to production cars.

    Those days are long gone.
     
  8. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ Lifetime Rossa Owner

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    "So can you confirm my opinion that Duntov who was a product of pre-war training, was marginalized as time went on? In other words, if GM had decided to put him in charge of working with Jim Hall , they would have had not much in common?"

    I would never presume to think of a "what if" scenario_One can never predict what large egos would do,or how they might react,in a given circumstance.
     

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