MCLAREN 720S OR 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488' started by doccharlie954, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Shadowfax, just tell me why you opted for a 488 over all other mid-engine, V8 Ferraris you had to choose from.

    Also, what tracks do you typically drive on and do you have any lap times you could share in various Ferrari's you've driven on them? Perhaps you have some 488 lap times?
     
  2. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Formula Junior

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    I was like Mandalay - joined here to learn about the car I had chosen to buy looking to fine tuning my build spec and not make any mistakes if possible. I thank all those fine members who offered me advice on the subject and I now have had built what is an amazing car which suits my needs down to the ground. I don't post on any other social media medium and I'm so glad after seeing what can go on here. Astonishing to say the least.
     
  3. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Formula Junior

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    #2753 Shadowfax, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    I will indulge you this last time....yes as foolish as that may be seen. I chose it because of how it drove and I also happened to like the look and sound of it. With track I've done more days than I can count over the years, had all the driver training (with Porsche) etc. I love driving and I love cars. Have been in the automotive game my entire life. I could even have petrol in my blood. If there is an opportunity to drive I'm there in a heartbeat. Don't be offended that I chose the 488 over the Mac but I prefer the 488 over it mainly because of how it drives and that's just how it is. Don't get me wrong I love the Mac too along with Porsche Lambo and all other HI -PO cars and highly respect the engineering of the Mac even if i'm not sold on the look sound and drive of their 720. At this time the Mac is not my bag and for reasons previously mentioned. Maybe another model on another day will do it but for me its never been so much about the badge but more about how it drives and connects and how fast I can push it to the limit. Re track times - don't drive for times....just for pleasure of driving fast sorry. I'm sure someone has timed me at the track, I think I've been told a couple of times but it doesn't interest me. Maybe I'll check next day out but I'm not going for a seat in Redbull so it won't matter to me what it is anyway.
     
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  4. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3

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    Noone, you asked a question a page ago that I think is a good one, which I gave some thought to. Why, if driving pleasure is a reason to buy a 488 over a 720 would someone not just buy an older and manual car?

    Firstly, I don’t agree that you cannot use the power of these modern cars on the road, it is certainly still possible if you drive them properly. By this I mean not like you see on YouTube with journalists hanging the back out around a hairpin, which they would only do in a staged way - there are often tell-tale rubber lines on the same bends which probably means they have tried the same bend a number of times to get the images right. If you use track driving techniques on a quiet, fast road, out of town (there are many near to where I live) you can use the power difference between a 488 and a 360. (With twisty roads you don’t even need to kill the speed-limit either). I remember having probably a similar amount of fun in a 360 but as the years go by and the power (and your own ability) increases, it is appealing (at least for me) to move onto the higher-powered and more developed, newer car.

    All these manufacturers are on an automotive journey, using technology that wasn’t around 10 years ago to increase power and also the software and systems needed to make that power controllable. What some prefer about Ferrari is the way they use these systems to harness that power in a way that feels more playful, plus their ability to turn a turbo engine into one that feels more like a n/a engine. As an aside, my 488 is outstanding on this regard, though still not at the level of the Speciale.

    Others prefer the Mac approach, which is to sacrifice some of the delicacy of the Ferrari but deliver a tool that is simply designed for the highest level of pace they can get. The 720 is the quicker car without doubt. I am in the former category as my purchase history shows but I have Ferrari friends who own and love macs, especially the LT, too. So I know the 675 and 720 have tremendous merit.

    I love manual transmission and still own manual cars (mainly Subaru STIs of varying description) but not in a 488. To gain access to the additional speed and tech of the newer car, and go with these manufacturers on that ‘journey’, manual transmission is not really appropriate. Nowadays, I actually prefer the F1 paddle action, especially in a mid-engined car, because you can really feel the car in your hands as you turn. The driver engagement is still there in spades. With a manual you have to take your hand off the wheel at the best point. It’s energetic and a little more frantic when you heel and toe, hand coming on and off the wheel quickly, but it doesn’t feel nicer to me unless you are in a car whose personality is ‘manual’, like an old Porsche. The modern performance car has so many well-developed electronic systems too that any notion that you need a manual transmission to help you feel you are driving the car is rather facile anyway.

    The driving appeal of a pre-2000, manual, sports car is very different to the driving appeal of a post 2010 supercar like the 488. Therefore, in the context of the modern supercar, ‘driving character’ is still a relevant differentiator between brands in my view.

    Here’s a thought or question of my own though. On all these forums people talk about the drive or the pace or even the looks of one car being over another. However, in the modern world Ferrari is the de facto ‘obvious’ choice. Look at the facts, it has a longer history, throws far more money at engineering, has more dealers, a more illustrious racing heritage, builds its own engines, has its own aerodynamic wind tunnel etc. McLaren is a challenger. It uses a different philosophy to overcome the more ‘obvious’ appeal of the bigger brand. Ferrari’s heritage is racing but they have a theme park in Abu Dhabi, they sell a (wonderful by the way) four seat GT, and their cars are not always the fastest. The appeal of the Mac is in the way they combat Ferrari’s huge development budget and hyper-brand status and build a car with a more engineering/racing mindset. Forget the frippery, the personality, it’s fast because it is engineered to be fast and all the focus is there.

    Some people just like this philosophy. They like to be alternative. They don’t like the fact that more people have a Ferrari, to them it shows ‘followership’ in terms of buying habits - bought by people who cannot think for themselves so they buy the obvious choice. My contention is that there is a lot more of this going on in the minds of those who buy both Ferrari and McLaren than we are prepared to admit (or maybe we don’t even know). Ferrari people believe they are buying the best, most beautiful, most developed car with the richest heritage. McLaren people are buying an alternative, a product that you need self-confidence, focus and intelligence to buy. And this is where the entrenched positions come from, especially in the case of Mac owners, whose basic premise is “I have bought something whose appeal you are unable to understand, because I am more aware than you”. I think that’s what gets on Ferrari-people’s nerves. As you probably know, I have owned a McLaren and I enjoyed it. I like the alternative/challenger idea and my career has been full of association with brands with that philosophy, my own company is an excellent example of it. But in the end, in this case, I realised I prefer Ferrari.
     
  5. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    What a post!
     
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  6. wrs

    wrs Formula 3
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    They should lock the thread on this one.
     
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  8. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    #2757 noone1, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    Good info. I have in fact considered things like "what do you gain by keeping both hands on the wheel and what do you lose by removing the manual interaction". I guess I'm just in the camp that says even though you do gain something in such a scenario, there is a net loss in involvement and skill required for the vast majority of people. Far less so to a professional who does this sort of thing for a living, but I think it's very much a loss to the average non-pro. As much as I do love having auto mode in a modern DCT car for when you just want to relax or are going around the city or in traffic, I'd much rather have all the latest exotics with a manual. I wouldn't even care if it was "fake", just so long as I got back those required inputs of operation in some shape or form. If I was going to get a GT3 today, I'd definitely get a manual, no doubt in my mind. I've heard 50% of new GT3s are showing up as manual even. I don't think modern technology has made a manual and less enjoyable. Exotics aside, I still like getting a manual when I rent a car in Europe. Doesn't matter of it's a Ford Focus or an Opel or whatever. Manual is just more of an experience than DCT IMO.

    I guess what I see is something like a 430 that can do a lap time of something like 8 minutes on the NR and a 488 that can probably do 7 minutes. This is like 10% quicker, but you have to factor in tires that pretty much any car can upgrade, factor in surface improvements, and back out time gained on just a ridiculously long straight at speeds you'll never do outside of the autobahn. The average speed difference between the two cars on the truly interesting and engaging parts of a track isn't really that much. Relative to racing standards, sure, they're enormous, but you're really talking only a few mph in many case.

    Then I see what appears to be just your average exotic owner, who I am nearly certain can't get anywhere near the potential time of a 430, driving a 488 and saying a 720S just isn't exciting enough or engaging enough. To buy a 488 for excitement and engagement would mean to me that you can actually exploit the 488 to a level beyond what something older could do, say a 458 or 430, otherwise I believe you're at a net loss in those qualities due to all the advancements that pushed the limits of the car higher with no real change in driver talent, especially so on normal roads.

    If you are willing to exploit the 488 in that manner, then you should be able and willing to drive a 720S at the pace needed to feel a very similar level of excitement and engagement. If you can't, then why did you buy a 488 in the first place? Maybe it does in fact heavily have to do with wanting the latest new shiny thing and not because of those driving characteristics... I for one admit that design is the main reason why I'd buy a new exotic today simply because I don't feel like I'm getting much of a return on the new technology and added performance with regards to excitement and engagement. Without constantly being on a track fine tuning these higher level skills, I find it hard to believe anyone really is and that comes down to what I said above -- that the difference between a 430 and 488, or a 12C and a 720S in performance is actually very small outside of a straight line, and I think new cars require less and less skill/talent than every before. I mean, Ferrari and McLaren now have drift controls built into the cars. If you did a drag race video where people actually manually adjusted throttle at the beginning and the "wrong" car won, everyone would call you an idiot for not using launch control and say it's a poorly done test.

    I simply believe that quite a few people in this thread who bought a 488 did not buy it for the reasons they hold against a 720S in comparison, because I think if they were truly after those things, they wouldn't be in a 488 in the first place given the probability of what their skill level is. Therefor I think it shouldn't be "the 720S has lag, it's not engaging enough", but rather it should be "the 720s is engaging if you're competent enough and I'm just not that good".

    I do think a 488 could very well be more exciting for a lot of people at the speeds that drive. What I don't believe though is that the

    Just my two cents though.
     
  9. wrs

    wrs Formula 3
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    Pretty low cost per word, probably we take it for what it's worth.
     
  10. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Whoops, something got cut off.

    I do think a 488 could very well be more exciting for a lot of people at the speeds that drive. What I don't believe though is that the the average road is physically bound by constraints that would not allow a 720S to be extremely engaging or exciting. I do believe though that each new car will require you to drive at a higher and higher pace than the previous such that you eventually just become uncomfortable doing so.
     
  11. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie
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    Come on Rob, ban or close.
     
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  12. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    You're welcome to share your Cali T vs 488 lap times...
     
  13. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula 3
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    Once again - you have never even driven the 488 let alone 90% of the other cars that you talk about.
     
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  15. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    You keep pointing out things that are irrelevant to the point I'm making.

    Two questions for you:

    1. How you many times have you tracked your current car?
    2. Is engagement and excitement in your car related to what you're doing or how you're doing it?
     
  16. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

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    I far prefer the taste of chocolate ice cream over vanilla. I have never eaten ice cream. I also think Bud light is tastier than Corona but I have not had a drink of either. Sorry this post is so short. But worry not, I will go on ad infinitum in the future edifying everyone about issues of which I have no personal experience.. Please feel free to discuss my thoughts ad nauseum.
     
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  17. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Simple questions for you as well:

    1. Do you think that you yourself trying to do 7 minutes on the NR in a 720S would be massively less engaging and/or exciting than 7 minutes in a 488?

    2. Given what you know about the talent required to do such a thing and how closely matched they really are, do you really think you need to drive both to make a reasonable conclusion?
     
  18. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Post of the year! Very well said. As I read the question that sparked your writing, very similar thoughts went through my mind. Then I read your posit. Very very well said.
     
  19. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula 3
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    The fact that you are still going on and questioning people about their engagement and excitement on a car that they actually own and actually drive should speak volumes.

    Whether Ive tracked my car, first of all is irrelevant to the discussion but its actually comical that you are questioning me on it given the fact that you have actually never driven it. At least I own a 488 (amongst other cars) - you are asking me about tracking a car when you actual car is a Camry????seriously?

    Engagement and excitement with a vehicle can be had on a track.
    Engagement and excitement with a vehicle can be had on a public road driving your car to work.
    Engagement and excitement with a vehicle can be had taking your wife out on a night on the town.
    Engagement and excitement with a vehicle can be had on a nice weekend drive with other car enthusiasts as you enjoy each others company and cars.
    Engagement and excitement can be had at high speeds. It can be had at low speeds.

    One does not need to track a car to know about engagement and excitement.

    None of this you have no clue about because YOU DO NOT OWN ANY CARS nor have DRIVEN ANY CARS that have been in discussed in this 100+ page thread.

    For you to ask about ring times and engagement and excitement is beyond comical. You know nothing of the concept and yet you try to pass yourself off as an expert in all things with 4 wheels and a motor.

    Rather than continue to waste everyones time here- go sit in corner with a pile of Motor Trend magazines or whatever your favorite magazine is that gives you engagement and excitement and leave the rest of us alone.

    The 488 (a car that I own) is an amazingly engaging car.
    The 720 ( a car that I have actually driven several times) is a ridiculously fast exciting car.
    The GT3 manual ( a car that I actually have arriving in a few weeks is awesome)
    The GT3 RS - ( a car that I actually own) is engaging and exciting

    These are the 4 most recent cars on this thread that you have brought into the discussion and yet other than reading about these cars, you have no experience with them whatsoever!

    If Im going to spend as much time arguing on a topic as you do, I try to make sure that Im actually credible in what Im saying. I don't tend to spend hours arguing with people in topics that I have no credibility.

    So for the last time- please stop. The more you type, the more foolish you sound. Even if you make a valid point, I cant get past the fact that YOU HAVE NEVER DRIVEN THE CARS THAT YOU ARE PONTIFICATING ON!!
     
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  20. waterking

    waterking Karting
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    noone1 has an agenda. That point is obvious. His main point seems to be that he wants the reader to keep responding because it continues to keep the door open for him to promote his online application for Top Gear analyst. I wish him well on his job search but his ramblings continue to be a great example of a dog eating his own vomit.
     
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  21. SoCal to az

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    wtf??? seriously? His schtick is a damn job application???

    Now Im even more pissed.
     
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  22. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    You keep saying I've never driven some of these cars for some reason, yet I say I have. I guess you're right and I'm wrong about that, somehow. Not sure why you think I own a Camry. I had a McLaren that I sold last fall.

    I'm glad we can agree that all those cars are exciting. I don't even have to drive a 488 to know it's exciting. Do you have to drive a LaFerrari or 918 to know they are exciting and engaging? It's common sense that cars in these class can dip more than a toe in the pool of excitement and engagement.

    To be fair though, nothing you've said is terribly credible because there is no indication that you even reach far enough into the performance of any given car such that you could make any real claim that's valid to anyone else. I know from experience that my girlfriend will tell me to slow down even though I don't even think I'm driving fast in the first place.

    I feel more than comfortable saying that the potential for engagement and skill in driving a 720S is greater than what you actually do in your 488. I have no doubt in my mind that on any given road, the pinnacle of interaction and talent need for to push a 720S is beyond what you do in the 488 today. Why do I say this? Well, I don't get the impression that you're a professional or track junk, and for all I know your first really high performance road car was a 488.

    Look, I don't care how good of a driver you are or not. I will admit I'm probably quite ****ty on a track, but I'm capable of extrapolating both road and track and thus I don't need to drive every single $300K bleeding edge supercar to know there exists some arbitrary point at which it's very engaging, demanding, and exciting.
     
  23. wrs

    wrs Formula 3
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    I didn't have the Vbox setup when I did he owner lapping in the Cali T but I think I was doing around 2:50 or so on the best ones which is about ten seconds slower than with the 991tts. I am doing a track event on June 7 at COTA with FOA and I will take the Vbox then. That will be my first opportunity to have the 488 at the track and get some Vbox data on it.

    However, as far as engaging goes and how far I can push this car vs. the Cali T, this car is more engaging and I can push it harder based on my Lime Creek road comparison. This is based on how the car is geared and the speeds at which I could take the corners as well as the feel of car when I push it. I can't imagine you would try to claim that I wasn't getting the most out of the Cali T if I can do better with the 488. The Cali T was good in corners but the the 488 is great. I really am excited to get it out to COTA and see if I can get a 2:30 lap time.
     
  24. SoCal to az

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    Tell me about your driving experience in a 488.

    Tell me about your driving experience in a GT3 manual.

    Tell me about your driving experience in a GT3 RS.

    Other than the one test drive you took in a 720 - tell me about your driving experience in a 720.

    Tell me about your driving experience in a 360.

    Tell me about your driving experience in a 430.

    You used to own a 12c. What is your current car?
     
  25. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    I actually do think you were getting the most out of the Cali T. I don't know that you were getting the most anyone could get out of a Cali T. Then again, one is a 4 seater convertible and the other is a 2 seater mid-engine.

    The point is rather that the skill of the driver is what determines the level of talent and how demanding the experience will be. If you do not have the talent needed to more or less completely max out the lesser car, then it's entirely possible that the better car may not feel as demanding. Imagine doing a wet lap and a dry lap and aiming for the same time. You're in the exact same car, yet one experience was much different.

    Now imagine you have two different cars but these are real roads and there are things beyond your talent that may limit how you drive it. I assure you that 25 mph on a side street with cars on both side of you in a 720S is not exciting. Maybe 25 mph in a 488 is by some miracle exciting in that situation. Does that mean a 720S wouldn't be exciting at 120 mph in that situation? No, it just means you have to be willing to do it.

    So given that I don't believe anyone in this thread is really capable of pushing these cars to the levels of performance that they are engineered for, then it becomes very much a question of "If you don't think a 720S is engaging enough, why don't you just drive it faster"
     
  26. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    So I'll preface this by saying I have never driven any of these on a track, so if you're expecting fine details, especially from years ago, then you will be sorely disappointed.

    None in a 488.

    Manual GT3 was an orange 997.1. I think it was a 2007, yeah? I preferred the gated manual in my R8. Just liked the clack and feel of the metal. Not fast by any means. Didn't sound particularly amazing since I've had a high revving NA before and some mods.

    Never driven an RS.

    720S tested, some modest roads. A few sprints, don't think I ever even did full throttle from 1st gear. Fastest car I've ever driven, probably slower than the 1K+ HP GTR I've drive in. No meaningful comment on suspension because I did not drive there and I have no frame of reference for any specific road by comparison. You can't really test a car on vastly different public roads and come to much conclusion about it unless the roads are sublime. My roads have never been sublime. In fact, that's why the 12C suspension was so good -- it handled our terrible roads so well. I'm familiar with the P11 hydraulic suspension and I'm familiar with a P11 that needed new accumulators. The biggest take away was that it's insanely fast, but possibly too fast for the US given how widespread police are these days. I'd probably only buy it when I'm back in Europe.

    No experience in a 360 because I was like 18 when those cars were popular. Had no money then. Always wanted a CS for some reason, still do, but I think they're overpriced.

    Have driven a 430, F1. Sounded awesome. Again, didn't feel that quick but it's also not that quick. Had no problems with the F1, but I also had no problems with the E-gear in the LP560 either. Back when I was younger I lusted after paddles, but ultimately I was glad I went with a manual in the R8 and I'd rather have a manual now than any paddles.

    I really have no current car. I've been staying with a sick family member and just use theirs. OK, I bought their car for them I guess, but otherwise I'm usually abroad and I don't really drive. One of the reasons I sold the 12C (aside from it being a pain in the ass and unreliable) is that I spend time where I don't need to drive and it was always ****ed up when I was in town and wanted to drive it.
     
  27. SoCal to az

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