McLaren discontinues 12C, offers owners free upgrade

Which facts of mine didn't you encounter?

Explain your issue with those two points and how the situation would be different had the 12C stayed in production and the 650S was a 12C GT3.

And please answer these questions:

1. If the 12C stayed in production and they were happy with it, would you be upset that it didn't get anything new over he course of its life?
2. Would you expect to get all the GT3 difference?

 

Point #1 ... "They promised to update (12C) throughout it's life, but NOT continuously" ??? What does that mean?? Is that like being a LITTLE PREGNANT ??? You either keep your word or you don't. Double-Talk is not an option!
Point#2 .... "They said the 12C would stay in production" .... and now, a few weeks go by, and they flip flop ending the production and you Mr. Enabler give them a pass. A lie is a lie, period !!

When I purchase a new car .... I don't expect ANYTHING more than what I paid for, other than service bulletin or safety updates, period!!
You sound like someone who whines for free stuff. Like I said: I don't like the way they treat customers or the way they tell lies and obfuscate !!

 

Noone1: Is that YOU Ron Dennis?

Look, we know you're Mac's number 2 fan boy here but to be honest, this a discussion about how McLaren can better serve it's customers, not excusing them for the mistakes they've made. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

If you like to be screwed over by McLaren, please continue to. No problem here. If you like that they ship cars without working electronics and broken promises it will be fixed in the future, please support them. If you like that they promised a car would not go out of production for 2 years at a major show they showed a new model at and then 2 weeks later tell everyone in the bottom of an email "sorry, we changed our minds" please go ahead. If you accept that the company didn't understand the market and pushed into dealers way more cars than they had orders for causing massive depreciation in one year, that's fine with us.

Just let us see if maybe a little discussion about how they can better serve their clients might actually filter back in a positive way.

I'm not sure what you're complaining about. I don't see why constructive criticism of McLaren's business practices can't be discussed here.

It happens every day with Ferrari. Are you going to make a 26 point defense of them next?

 

Mayor...the problem with nowonwon is that he gets a much more spirited internet conversation on this site than the ones that the Mac owners populate. Here he can tell all the other exotic owners how much of an idiot they are while he poses himself as one of the illuminati. I must admit that I find his posts amusing as they seem to follow the trend of ready-fire-aim. Some of the other Mac owners sprinkle a lot of experienced based fact in their posts(verges) and therefore, once you get away from the "Ferrari owners are all dosed with drugs from the 60's" comparison, there is usually some information that is worthy of reading.
As well, I must commend nowonwon on the fact that he even rants from his cell phone. That takes commitment and perseverance and it is impressive that he feels so strongly about McLaren.

 

This whole debate is so much fun!

 

I think he's just trying to counteract all the malicious distortions of the truth posted on every McLaren thread on FChat. McLaren is a good company that isn't perfect and is still finding its way. I agree with almost everything he said in his latest post here. I currently own a McLaren and 2 Ferraris. I consider myself pretty objective. I'm not in any turned off or discouraged by the appearance of the 650S. In fact, I'm going to buy one because I drove it and came to the conclusion it's a great car.

So this whole "McLaren owners are pissed" nonsense is far too general of statement to be fair. Not all of them are. In fact I know many who aren't. Yes there are folks who like to have the latest and greatest and they're probably upset that the upside-down residuals keep them from getting a 650S. I can certainly understand and commiserate with their situation but that doesn't mean every 12C owner is pissed. I know lots of very happy 12C owners including myself.

People forget the hidden cost of buying Ferraris is the cost of the Ferraris you have to buy and/or trade back before you can get one without until the last model year. I basically had to buy an FF (which I LOVE!) to get a 458 Spider within a reasonable period of time. The delta of spending on all 3 McLarens isn't as big as the delta on what I paid for the FF and what it's worth today. Doesn't ultimately matter because I'm not selling the FF until the FF replacement comes out and then I'll trade it for that. I'll 'lose' tons of money on it. But the truth is that's not a loss at all. It's what it costs to have a car like that. When you lease a car (which I don't) you don't say you 'lost' all that money on it because you have to give back the car at the end of the lease. You simply say to yourself 'that's what it costs to have that car for that period'.

I have ZERO regrets on the Ferrari side or the McLaren side. They've all been fantastic cars and both dealerships and manufacturers have been wonderful to work with. The experience of owning and driving these cars makes it all worthwhile. This is not an experience that comes for free despite people trying to convince you that the Ferrari experience costs so little because of the high resale values. That only works if you ignore the money you spent to buy your way into the game and don't keep it for very long or drive it very much. I sure as heck don't want to do that. But if you want to jump from new thing to new thing in the car business you're going to 'lose' (i.e. spend) a lot of money doing so.

BTW, the nav and iTunes integration in the latest IRIS is better than the one is either of my Ferraris. So let's stop beating them up about this. My 458 Spider doesn't have Bluetooth audio, my 12C Spider does. Nav with satellite radio, bluetooth audio, and an iPod connector (USB) are standard features in the 650S but options in current Ferraris. I can easily configure a more featured 650S for far less than I paid (MSRP) for my 458 Spider.

 

It means exactly what it says! It means that if they decide they need/want to improve the car, that they will. They never said that they will continuously try to improve certain aspects of the car. It is and always has been up to them to decide what should be improved. Do you expect they to figure out how to increase hp/tq every year just because that's what you want?

They released updates in 2013.
They released updates in 2014.

If they are happy with the car, then that's that. They never said they'll update the car continuously for whatever the customer demands. It was always been at their discretion.

What exactly are you whining about? They have kept their word and kept all 12Cs on the same spec, within reason. No, they did not update your coupe to a Spider. No they would not update your 12C to a GT3 had it existed. No they will not update nuts and bolts just because the design is a little better.

They have done exactly as they said and keep all 12Cs on the say level as best they can.

You were told they wouldn't stop 12C, then they did. Oh well, I guess they changed their mind. It happens.

In reality they only difference that makes is that the guy with low self-esteem no longer has the newest toy on the block. Boohoo. The car is no different now than it was 2 weeks ago and you know it.

 

Mark...its hard to counteract the probable results of a fueled fire by substituting premium gasoline for unleaded. Simple experienced based statements often suffice and, for those of us that actually enjoy learning from the various posts on the site, provide as much or more entertainment than impetuous raving. Thanks for your insight.

 

Lol. Fanboy? I don't car about any brand. I buy what's cool and new. Next is the NSX. After that maybe a mid-engine Porsche is it exists. Brand loyalty is a term created by successful marketing manipulation of the pathetic. It exists to line the pockets of a corporation, not to improve your ownership experience.

I've met people from McLaren and they are great people. I wish them success in what they do. I wouldn't want them to go out of business for the same reason I wouldn't want anyone to lose their job or money.

That said, I have no loyalty to them or their products. I buy what I like. 12C is currently it. In a few years it won't be.

You're wasting your breathe, just like I probably am in responding. They don't care about what you think. They probably don't read Fchat. They do read ML to some extent, so that would probably be a better place to post your opinions, but they still probably aren't interested in your business strategies.

And do you know why they aren't? Because you have zero, zilch, nada idea about anything going on at McLaren HQ and what is/isn't a viable financial strategy. For all you know they are doing the best they can to remedy the situation with information you don't have access to. Maybe you're right that cutting supply would have helped demand, but how do you even know that was financially feasible. Do you think think they can pay their bills, investors, and creditors with the money they've saved owners on depreciation?

You can come up with all the ideas you want, but at the end of the day, you don't have even the slightest idea if they are viable of how feasible they are. It's not hard to come up with ideal situations and strategies. Unfortunately ideal is pretty rare in the real world.

So continue to harp ad nauseam about it. It's a forum and that's what it's for I guess.

 

U mad? Tapatalk tells me when someone quotes me. Yes, I have time to respond while I'm out walking around to find lunch, walking the dog, or sitting at the gym or whatever I decide to do any given day. Welcome to the year 2014.

I tell owners on ML they are idiots too if need be. Go read it. Besides, it's a McLaren thread. Should this thread be full of non-owners?

I use Fchat because I like Ferraris too and this is the site with the most Ferrari news. I'm in a market for all cars at all times. Haven't picked Ferrari yet, but oh well, I'm sure I'll own one at some point. I'd be nice if there was just one big forum and I didn't need to keep track of more than one. Oh well.

 

If the posts on a car site can make one mad....walking the dog more is definitely a step in the right direction. The use of the word idiot takes on new meaning when it comes from someone that neither knows the "idiot" of whom they speak or have ever met them in real life. Websites are definitely not real life. I recognize your desire to self appoint the intelligence in your posts and, as a matter of fact, when I hire sales people in my company I often look for that type of aggressive behavior. Later on I teach them control and then I watch them make enough to buy both a McLaren and a Ferrari. Try counting to twenty before you type...the word idiot usually drops out around 16.

I do appreciate your enthusiasm.

 

I'm actually just trying to get them to stop whining and crying about the cost of ownership. **** happens. They made a bad financial decision buying a McLaren because the market didn't agree with them. Just like the market didn't agree with me over BAC and AIG (but look who is laughing now!)

We could put these depreciation threads to rest if they would just admit they are unhappy about the 12C ownership almost entirely based on their loss of value.

Instead they try to mask it as being grossly misled, lied to, and poorly treated by McLaren.

 

I'm not trying to stir the pot or start any sh*t here, but I have to say that the Mayor and Mark are just about spot on in their assessments, and I did own a 12c. Also, FWIW, I would go buy a 650s TODAY if McLaren had shown even the slightest bit of marketing savvy. They may be the worst marketers of all times, and, based on the results of some of the decisions they've made, the rest of their business acumen is highly suspect as well. They need to hire McDonald's' marketing team.

Noone1-I've read many of your posts on both sites. In general, you seem like an ok guy, but your posts here are kinda making you seem less so- chill man, it's all good. Best

Mike

 

Who's mad?

I'm sure they're not idiots, nor do I probably actually call them as such other than a few who really just act dumb.

Some posts sure are though.

If people are just going to harp on the subjective and unproven, they belong in an exhaust note thread.

 

Man is this kid thick as a brick. We are whistling in the wind. Pretty sad commentary.

 

My commentary may be sad, but at least it's grounded in reality.

Your emotions are tied to your wallet, and you wallets suffers because of market demand, not over supply or bad marketing.

Supply has a floor greater than 0. In fact, much greater than zero. There is a minimum supply required for the business to survive. The demand floor is in fact 0.

What you and original owners experienced was a supply floor greater than the demand floor. That's not on McLaren, that's on the market. And you must agree that it's not on McLaren because you spoke with your wallet and said, "This car is worth it." The problem is you were one of the few.

You and many others then decided to dump your cars after barely using them, not only creating even more supply, but more supply and extremely low prices, making matters worse.

Then started the race to the bottom of dealers having to discount to move cars, then private sells needing to drop lower to distance themselves from new cars at a discount. Rinse and repeat.

The demand just wasn't there and nothing short of a redesign was going to help it. No free fancy nav systems, or more performance updates was going to change the 12Cs fate. Hell, the verdict is still out on the 650S. Might be no different.

Original owners wanted something than no one else did, or at least not enough did. That's the price you pay when it involves such high-end purchases.

I didn't expect the 12C to tank and I'm sure McLaren didn't either or else they would have done something else. The P1 is proof they are capable of great cars. 12C is a great car, but it just didn't pan out.

My opinion is mainly that the looks were too conservative and the dealer network too small. Those two things weren't a shocker though. Everyone knew that info ahead of time. Sprinkle a little 458-is-better journalism and that's all she wrote.

 

Noone1--> The 12C didn't tank. It's a great car.

The problem is that McLaren didn't have the resources (or experience, forethought, brains - feel free to pick one) to market it enough. They didn't have enough dealers. So there wasn't enough demand to keep residual prices high. Plus they had some growing pains with IRIS not being ready to ship when they first shipped it. The reviews for the 12C were very good (something distorted by naysayers today but go back and look) but not enough to overcome the 458. 12C reviewers stopped short of the extra high level praise we're seeing today for 650S. I'm not sure that if McLaren had created the 650S first if it would have been any better. They needed time and space away from the 458 and they needed the P1 to jolt the journalists out of their tendencies to assume nobody can produce anything as exciting as a Ferrari.

But the cars themselves are EXCELLENT. I've had two 12C Spiders and I absolutely loved them. I've been so pleased with the 12C that I'm going to trade up to the 650S and I've ordered one to my spec which will show up in June.

So what happened next after 12C? McLaren had a choice. Try to overcome a poor start (unlikely to pan out) or fix things. What to fix? Address the "bland" styling comments, evolve in some of the things you developed for the P1 that made it get amazing reviews, make the car a little more exciting to drive and rename it so it gets reviewed as a new model - not just as model year tweaks which mostly go ignored by anyone but the most avid enthusiasts. Also hope that some of the lustre of the P1 rubs off on the 650S. This is what they did and it appears to be successful.

Now they have to overcome the limits of their dealer network and marketing using the great reviews of the P1 and 650S as a spring board. It won't happen overnight but this is a gradual turning of the corner.

One last thing. As the 650S gets more recognition I believe it will shine a light on just how good a car the donor car (the 12C) was to begin with. Eventually it will get more respect - especially as second-hand owners (who got/will get incredible values on these cars) start to show them around. With only ~3,600 ever made the 12C will be a desirable car. McLaren has a long history of supporting their cars. The factory still services and supports the F1 from 1992. It is in their DNA so I suspect that customers 12C and 650S cars will have long and enjoyable lives. So as the dealer network gets bigger (which it is already doing here in the USA) people will get more comfortable with buyer McLaren cars. Then a larger product line, with something priced more toward the exotic car entry level, will help them grow further. I think their future is bright.

 

Mark...excellent post. No marque bashing or owner ranting. Your explanation is more than likely the exact and only path available to McLaren after the market for the 12C began to deteriorate. Pull the car, allow its low numbers to possibly bolster its value to those that hold on to it and introduce a "new" car with a combination of 12C and P1 in its DNA. That, in my humble opinion, was the only move McLaren could make. Kudos to them for making the decision so that they can continue their push into the marketplace without a "lame duck" car that would continue to come up in discussions as the company tried to move forward. The move to stop the build out of the 12C will, more than likely, be a moot point in two years as long as McLaren stays the course they have put themselves on.

Thanks for the post.

 

I agree. I meant the values tanked. The market just didn't take to it for whatever reason. I agree that it was probably mostly related to styling and dealer network. At least to me, those were my initial hang ups and most of the actual negative comments about it concern those aspects. I do honestly think the dealer issue can be overcome, but the styling needed something more drastic. If the 12C looked like an Aventador or a Zonda, it would probably have been the most desirable car in recent memory even with a small dealer network.

I think the marketing issue is exaggerated. I'm being completely honest when I say I've never even seen marketing material for Ferrari or Lamborghini beyond launch media on the Internet. I'm really into cars and can honestly say that my only good exposure to these cars is reviews on the Internet.

I think McLaren has been slow to respond to some things, but from a marketing stand point, they are no different than Ferrari or Lamborghini imo. They show their cars are shows, they give them to magazines to test, and they issues boring, embellished press releases.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche have brand names that McLaren could only dreams of catching up to in such a short period of time. The general public knows nothing about any of the cars and never sees anything about the cars, but over the last 50 years they've just become known as exotic, desirable cars. I really don't think any realistic amount of marketing would get McLaren to those levels. They'd have to spend more in advertising than they do on development to reach that audience and status.

I believe they've done an OK job as far as enthusiasts knowing about their products and their performance. From what I've experienced, it's maybe 1 over par.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking marketing is brochures and trade shows. Those are just some of the tools of marketing - and the least important in my opinion. Who buys a car from the brochure or trade show? Those tools are to reinforce consumer impressions of an aspect of marketing (your message, although many companies never seem to get this part right either!)

 

What total nonsense! Stick with those five year old R8's you drive, it's more in your league. You obviously can't afford to stroke a check for a brand new car.

 

Wasn't noone1 the kid who couldn't afford to insure his car with Chubb insurance? He went with State Farm because he said he didn't intend to get into an accident so he just needed the bare minimum coverage. What kind of idiot would intend to get into an accident!
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-mp4-12c/2257-who-you-guys-using-insurance-us.html

 

Ya' think they might get that respect before they go totally down the tubes? .....I love reading these pathetic McLaren fanboys..... LMAO

 

My parents always told me to buy things in cash. Looks like the kid searched long and hard for his used and beat up Mclaren. I remember he has a bunch of problems with his car. We should remind members to steer away from noone1's car.
Should I get it certified used? Worth it? - McLaren Life

 

Let's keep it civil folks. It's extremely easy for McLaren/Ferrari fans to bash each other.....I'm not a moderator, but no need to start picking on individual members