Cool - I thought so, but was not sure. Any others that I missed or might have included by mistake? >8^) ER
Erik is there a reason you don't work for McLaren yet? Your knowledge of these cars is incredible! Great thread Kevin
Looking now. All of yours seem to be bang on Possibilities: 006 is a possibility. I have an owners name but no date with which that name corresponds to 042 was apparently sold new to C.B. but he doesn't own it anymore 050 070? 059? (i also have a different name than you for the owner of 059 and 015R) 072? (Where did this car come from? I assume its still owned by his family...) Do you have any info on 044 before Chambers owned it?
#006 was sold in late 2008, but had been with its original owner up to that point. It went back to the factory for a full refit by its new owner and should be reappearing in a familiar Japanese location ( ) sometime soon I'd imagine. If you have the original owners name, I'd like to add it to the 'brain file' over here. I'll just assume you have #050 as MS based on the wink. I'll remain in a holding pattern on that for now. I'd like it to be true. I think #070 changed hands when we started seeing it at the LMP Cars dealership in early 2006. Prior to that it was probably with its original owner. #15R - yeah, I was basing that off comments from our friend Martin. I didn't include #059 because I just don't have real info to share. If you do, you have my email. #072 - not sure where it went first. It didn't arrive in the USA until June of 2000, so that gives a 2-year gap. Also, I am not sure TG had made his money as far back as 1998 to have purchased the car new. Since we know it was not built with the HDF Kit, then its likely he had that added at the time he purchased it perhaps? Not sure of the origins of #044, but when it first arrived in the USA it wore UK reg plate 'P354 JXP'. Someone would have to ask Herb what that story is. >8^) ER
Nope. Ron Dennis. See the high mirrors london car thread Interesting. I hadn't thought of the HD kit point I forgot about that. Thanks
where is the VIN plate out of interest,i will be going london alot this summer solely for car spotting adventures!
This should help: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=622549 Its right ahead of the gear shifter on the right hand firewall. You can see it from both windows (although you can only read it from the right hand window in my experience)
I should really write more of this stuff down when you say it. I am sure you have mentioned that before. Still an assumption that it's the unidentified high mirrored car, but that would all make sense, I will give you that. >8^) ER
It's possible to photograph it through the side window closest to the gear lever, but better results come from shooting through the windshield if the car is closed up. Here's an example of each approach. That additional plate mentioning the top speed run is an add-on and won't be seen on all F1s. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I saw this car in person at the Americana Mall in NY a few years ago and I noticed some deformation on the front bumper then. Looks like it's still there. If I didn't know it [should be] Carbon fiber, I'd swear it was fiberglass or FRP! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
It's not deformed. Here's a shot of XP1 LM, the F1 LM prototype, which looks identical. Most of the GTRs have this 'flattened' look as well. Some of the cars with the High Downforce Kit do look slightly different, with a forward curvature at the base where it meets the carbon splitter though. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login
Yes thanks for clarifying that! I did spot the absence of that curvature you mentioned and the missing tow-hook slot (on both the GTR and LM) Image Unavailable, Please Login
Erik, Maybe I missed this one, but wouldn't the silver car that was in the London showroom and was sold off not too long ago be considered original owner? I'm not sure what chassis that is, #06_ maybe?
#065. I think it was sold somewhere in SE Asia for close to $2 million (if not more) a few years ago. I saw it back in 2002 when it was still at the [now closed] showroom. I keep picturing the plate "automobile manufacture" in red and black on the front of the car in Singapore at a show or something...I think it has sold again??? Not sure.
Yes - I went looking for a good example of the curvature, but almost all the HDF Kitted F1s wear a front plate of some sort, so that GTR (#17R btw) makes for a great example. Being that the LMs were based on 1995 GTRs, perhaps that curvarture you see in your example was a design change for the later GTRs based on extended testing in the wind tunnel. With the very limited development budget Gordon Murray had for the first few F1 GTRs, he stated that he was only able to spend one day in the tunnel to work on the aero package for them. If you are talking about modifications by companies outside the factory - no, none that I am aware of besides the things flemke has changed on his related to the suspension. The factory has done quite a bit of modification to cars at the owners request. At least one has a radio, with a retractable aerial antenna. You may recall Gordon left that out of the initial design. More extensive modifications have included fitting the High Downforce Kit to at least 10 F1s. Two of those cars have also had an LM-spec engine fitted to them (#018 and #073). Other owners have spec'd out all sorts of electronic gizmos which surely added some weight to the car, but probably not enough to truly have an affect on performance. I think three things have prevented anyone from really messing around with one: 1. The value of these cars and each owner's desires to stay true to the Murray ethos which they must appreciate to consider the purchase. 2. The fact that it already has too much power - seriously. 3. That the McLaren Customer Care program exists, allowing owners to have their cars serviced or repaired by the factory that created them. It comes at a price of course, but there's some pretty deep pockets in the world's of F1 owners. Al just touched on this a bit, but I'll expand on his answer. Chassis #065 was first removed from the McLaren showroom at the end of 2003, to be prepped for sale. At the time the factory's price for the 'last unsold McLaren F1' was £1M. The car was sold in the middle of 2004 to a customer from Singapore. While there, the car was kept at a dealership called "Automobil Manufactur" who are also the regions official Pagani importer. The F1 was never registered, probably due to the 140% import tariff based on Open Market Value they would have had to pay to do so (ouch!). It was displayed once at the 'Dreamcars Asia' show in 2007. The last photos I have of the car in Singapore were taken there in May 2007, but I think it is safe to assume it remained in Singapore until it went back to the factory for another once-over leading up to the sale at RM London for £2.5M. Not a bad return on a three year investment anyway. The original printing of RMs catalog identified chassis #065 as the last F1 ever produced, but they later ammended that to be accurate, as in fact 14 more F1s, including the two customer GTs, were built after it was completed. >8^) ER
These could be rumors, but didn't Bruce Weiner's F1 have somewhere in the vicinity of $250k in upgrades? I heard at one time it was the only F1 to have passed EPA in California. Is there any truth to that?
Well for starters, Bruce Weiner sold his F1 back in 2006 through Lamborghini of Atlanta, so unfortunately he no longer owns the car. Most will know the car as "Dan Kennedy's F1" from Scottsdale, AZ, as when he owned the car it lived a very public life both in the real world and on the internet. He was also the person responsible for all the modifications made to the car, which by the way, is chassis #038. Dan stated "The car has TONS of high tech options on it. Navigation, 160gb MP3, Radar, Intercom, 2 way radio, new A/C, Radiators, Xenon, et... These were engineered and installed by McLaren at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars." This video, which I am sure some have seen, was shot at the McLaren factory by Dan's wife when they arrived to pick up the F1 after all its changes in late 2001. McLaren F1 Delivery Here's a scan of a print ad featured in the Dupont Registry in December 2002 for #038 when Dan first offered the car for sale. It lists all the things that were done to the car. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1%20I/dec02fe1.jpg While it was for sale for a long time, he ended up keeping it until sometime in either late 2004 or early 2005 when it was then sold to a gentleman from Texas named Alfredo Brener. Brener kept the car maybe a year himself before selling it to Weiner who it seems kept it less than one year. I believe that after him, it has had just one owner - a name most would recognize perhaps living in Greenwich, CT - but at this point the connection remains unconfirmed. As for being the only F1 to meet CA emission standards - it may have been the first, but is not the only one. Chassis #028, #037, #062 and #067 have also done so - and perhaps there are others. >8^) ER
I have recently opened a crate my my warehouse that has what looks to be a US Ameritec McLaren F1 conversion bumper for the USA. It has the front small dual bumpers and the rear bumper, as well as, the two dual rectangle headlamp assemblies. A picture of the small from bumpers and headlights are exactly as this picture shows: http://www.imagebam.com/image/ca8ab664072853 Would anyone know if these were ever used on any of the cars, except the picture? They are painted the dark gray color as in the picture. Any ideas would be awesome. Thanks so much. I would be happy to send some pictures if someone wants to help identify. Kind Regards, Steve
Hi Steve- I would absolutely love-love-love to have pictures of those items!!! The story of the Ameritech F1s is rather messy and I'll freely admit I don't have all the details, and probably never will. Basically as I have been told (and this is depending on who you believe) Dick Fritz of Amerispec Corp used some connections at DOT and the EPA, along with exploiting some loop-holes in the laws governing vehicle importation to somehow become a manufacturer, and in the process import 7 F1s through a 'Free Trade' zone. Each one was given a new 'Ameritech' VIN number and supposedly all the cars were converted with those parts you have, and the two passenger seats were "removed" in order to satisfy the regulators. There were possibly other changes required too, but those are the ones that were most visible. Interesting that you mention a rear bumper, as I've never seen another exterior shot of a converted Ameritech F1 besides the one you have linked to which appeared in Road&Track magazine, December 1997. Now the funny thing is that present day there isn't a single one of those 7 "Ameritech F1s" that still wears those parts, or lacks it's passenger seats. All the modifications were done without drilling a single new hole anywhere on the car, so that the changes could all be reversed once the government was satisfied. The value of the cars in their original condition was simply too great to do it any other way. People like Ralph Lauren would not be seen driving a car like the one in your picture. Some have even claimed that not all the cars were ever even converted with those parts to begin with. Six of the seven Ameritech F1s were basically silver, and so it would have been easy to present photos of the same car multiple times since the cars were not inspected first hand, or at least that is my understanding. The fact that you are in Florida leads me to believe you probably have the parts off of one of Gerd Petrik's F1s. He imported two of them through Amerispec - chassis #045 and chassis #067, and lived in Osprey at the time. It's been about a decade since he owned either car, and in pics of them from when he had them they certainly looked like "McLaren F1s" from nose to tail. If the parts you have are a brighter silver color, then they would have belonged to #067, as #045 was the one Ameritech F1 that was Dark Silver, almost Titanium. Here's an unfortunately tiny and grainy photo of the pair in his driveway. Beggars can't be choosers, of course, but if you have the time I'd really enjoy seeing as many pics of the parts as you are willing to take and share. I am sure some other F1 enthusiasts would enjoy them just as much since they've become a part of the history of the cars, at least a few here in the USA. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login
To expand on the story above, all of this Amerispec activity with the F1s went down a few years before the government enacted it's 'Show or Display' legislation. For those who might not be familiar with that, it's a provision that exempts certain rare or historically significant cars from having to conform to the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards controlled by the DOT. S/D was enacted in December 1999, added to a transportation bill that was sure to pass through Congress and be signed by then President, Bill Clinton. For a time, it was referred to as "Bill Gates' Law" because it was a lot of his own lobbying to allow entry of a Porsche 959 he owned for about a decade that finally got the job done. Keep in mind that 'Show or Display' is only a waiver for the DOT's FMVSS's, and does not allow you to bypass any of the EPA restrictions. I think this is the fatal flaw of the legislation, and still needs to be fixed, but it won't ever happen. So all cars that come in this way must meet the EPA guidelines for their year of manufacture, and in the case of cars built in 1996 or later, they must conform to the more stringent OBD-II standards. You can read more about the S/D import process in this old AutoWeek article reprinted on the web: Display of Speed: Under the "Show or Display exemption, Americans can now import previously forbidden exotics - Link One thing about the 7 Ameritech F1s and their 'new VINs' is they were all VIN'd with the letter 'S' in the 8th to last position. That identifies their 'Year of Manufacture' as being 1995. This isn't true in all seven cases though, as while three were 1995s (#042, #044, #045); one chassis was built in 1996 (#055); and the remaining three were all built in 1997 (#062, #067, #074). Their EPA certificates also identify the four later cars as 1995's as well, which allowed them to get around what should have been necessary changes to comply with OBD-II as mentioned. There is an outspoken critic of the Amerispec importation process who has shared a lot of these details on the F1 forum over the years. He's kind of quieted down lately, but I will share a memo below that he obtained and posted which was written in regards to the Ameritech F1s after 'Show or Display' was enacted. At that point, the folks at the DOT or EPA or both seemed interested in cleaning up the records on these cars, as it was apparently no real secret what had occurred with them. The idea from one organization was to have their owners submit applications for 'Show or Display' approval, and bring them in line with the new law. One would assume this would have meant using the McLaren VINs instead of the Ameritech ones, and of course that would have posed a huge challenge for the four cars built after 1995 in the eyes of the EPA. He stated when he shared this that it was 'legally obtained'. Ultimately, only Ralph Lauren's two McLaren F1s (#055 & #074) ever had applications for 'Show or Display' approval submitted, and both were subsequently withdrawn. The cars have all remained here legally and it is safe to assume that their paperwork issues have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Lauren, along with Herb Chambers who owns #044, still have possession of their cars, but the other four have changed hands, some more than once, without issue. The great thing about these cars, unlike the McLarens imported under S/D is that they shouldn't have to conform to the 2,500 mile per year limitation that is imposed with the S/D approval. Of course there aren't too many F1 owners who are putting that many miles on their cars anyway. An interesting story though with these cars - no doubt about that. >8^) ER
The ones listed in his comments and in the Dupont Ad - yes, that's my understanding. You have heard differently on that? >8^) ER
Erik, I just did not want to interrupt this thread with my stuff and I am glad you are open to me posting. I can take some pictures late today and e-mail them to you. I have a request in to see which car these parts came with and get a little more info for the story. Hope to talk a little later this evening. I can e-mail you the pictures, as I am not sure how to post them quite yet. Kind Regards, Steve
Sounds great Steve - I would really appreciate that. My email address is my FerrariChat screename @hotmail.com If you do get a 'story' and are able to share, I'd be interested in hearing that too. >8^) ER
