McLaren P14 spy shots

Wow, this is just disrespectful and rude. Part of the "you can have any opionion as long as it's mine" crowd.

 

+1

 

Not really rude KM, just expressing my opinion. Be nice and agree with me.


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The basic point about this being entirely subjective is basically unchallengeable. Except there is a point beyond which the vast majority of people would agree.

For instance, is a 488 better looking than a 458? Very subjective, you will find people who prefer either car, maybe 60/40, or 70/30. That is, to me, within the bounds of subjectivity.

But, if I was to say "a SsangYong Rodius (Korean MPV sold in Europe) was amongst the most beautiful vehicle designs of the last 20 years", I think you would get to 99/1 in terms of opinion. Still technically a subjective opinion, but to all intents and purposes not really.

To me, the P14 spy shot suggests a car that pushes the boundary in this respect. No one can ever say that it is "definitively and categorically ugly" because this is a subjective topic. And, as we mentioned before, in terms of this car versus a Toyota Corolla, also it is attractive and exciting.

But in terms of the opinions of potential customers, and especially potential conquest customers, if you were to ask them if their first reaction to this car is to be underwhelmed or even disappointed, then I reckon the percentage would be higher than it should be, needs to be, and McLaren would really like.

People may not like the 488 versus the 458, or the Huracan versus the Gallardo, or the DB11 versus the DB9, (I don't like the latter but like the first two). However, I have never taken to a forum to say what a terrible looking car the DB11 is. I don't like it, but I can see why many would, enough even to buy one (it is not the only consideration, of course), so I have not expressed my view because to like it is easily within those subjective bounds of reasonableness. The P14 shot suggests a car that I can't easily understand or find appealing, to such a degree that I am motivated to communicate my surprise, or even slight shock, on a forum.

As we said before, perhaps FS is having the last laugh at people like us wasting our time talking about a car that will look quite different when it eventually comes to market. But we can only comment on what seems to be, and what is the point of a forum if you don't talk about this stuff?
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Would you please join KM and myself in applying the ignore function on solely his design related comments? I'd really appreciate it if you join us since his opinions are pretty influential. I get the feeling that you may be swaying to the dark side and falling in to the trap of his views - there was once a tale of a king who wore no clothes. And Kim Jong-un (he's on ferrarichat) doesn't approve of his views either, just saying.


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You've thought a lot into this my man. I disagree with your sentiment regarding many of these vehicles (for example I think the 458 is a design triumph in nearly every respect). But we're all entitled to our own opinion.

 

Its people like you that ruin discussion forums.

Well said

 

No, its true. For me. Maybe not yourself.

More importantly, you may be reading more into my post than it actually says. I dont know the models and thats the point. Great design shouldnt need an educated eye to distinguish between them. The Countach > Diablo is the perfect example (they stumbled with the Murci). The 355 > 360 is perfect example (stumbling with the 430).

Lets examine your comparison of 991 to 997 as its very similar to the difference between the McLarens.

Sure , if you are a diehard car guy that looks at pics all day , your subconscious will pick up the different design cues to be able to immediately distinguish between them. However, to the untrained eye, they are easily confused.

My eye is trained to distinguish Porsches details as, even though im not a huge fan, I see them every day.

I dont see McLarens every day, and Im not that interested in them as a brand, so my eye isnt trained to immediately distinguish between them. The silhouettes and basic planes, like the Porsche silhouettes and basic planes, are very similar.

Now, Porsche gets a hall pass because the original shape is considered iconic. Its bad business to change an immediately recognized and iconic shape. Even though the general public cant tell the difference between 911 models, they know its a Porsche. Thats the design Holy Grail.

That leads me to the big point. McLarens basic forms are not considered iconic and IMO the enthusiast community, while complimentary of the designs, are not falling all over themselves calling them 'groundbreaking' or 'future classics', which tells me (simply professional opinion as a recognized designer in the film/product industry for almost 30 years) its not so smart to double down on the current design language making incremental changes.

Ferrari and Lambo get away with it because of the heritage and brand mystique. McLaren doesnt have this luxury so they need to be better than Ferrari and Lambo. Which currently , IMO, they are not.

That doesnt mean i think they are ugly. They arent. But they could be better distinguished.

There are two topics here being conflated. First is visual recognition. Second is, is good design subjective or not.

As far as visual recognition , studies have been done in this area regarding humans. Chinese have a hard time telling Amercians apart and vice versa. This is because most of us are very similar looking until you start to examine the details. This is established science.

As far as good design. If it was completely subjective then we wouldnt have top tier schools, would we ?

Im not going to argue this. Just presenting my thoughts. Take them or leave them.

 

Ok, part of that was actually funny.

And yes, this is just your opinion: "If you really are a designer I would have to say you must be a very bad one"

IMHO though this is rude: "Or just one who got into the profession by paying somebody a lot of money under the table. Or doing something very naughty under said table."

Finally, and for people that actually are interested in another's opinion, I think that McLaren's body designs are a mess, body lines for the sake of body lines, just a whole lot of stuff going on. It's as if they had a final design model that was not yet a solid and then stuck a stick in is and swirled it around.

However, I also realize that my opinion is not THE opinion and total respect that others love it. Having choices is a privilege , I really wouldn't want everybody's garage to look like mine.

 

Thats your opinion. I may or may not agree with it.

In my youth i worked with a guy who was constantly pushing the envelope of 'good design'. I thought his stuff was ugly (still do) and would say to him, 'different isnt always better'.

He went on to a good bit of fame as a designer...

 

+1

Agree.

 

Ok, ok, I retreat. White flag, don't shoot. Be smart though. ; )


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Please tell me that you are a man of good taste and that you understand good design.



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Nothing beats the time honored classic of a thread full of people bashing a car's design when the only thing available is a dodgy half covered shot of a test mule

If you don't like the design language, that's fine because that's a subjective decision. But to say that they all look the same is lazy observation and objectively false. I'm not a country music fan and therefore can't tell the difference between Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert, but that doesn't mean they sound exactly the same. I just don't like the overall genre and refuse to put in the effort to learn the distinctions. It all sucks to me and I'm not going to take the time to learn otherwise, so I remain happily ignorant of what I'm sure are a multitude of different eras, regions, and subgenres that are easily recognizable by country music fans.

To say that all McLarens look the same is an even lazier form of observational ignorance, as it takes a fraction of a second to recognize the differences between models. Of course the 12C/650/675 all look the same because they're updates to the same platform. The 570 variations look absolutely nothing like them, and if this P14 mule is anywhere close to the production version, it looks nothing like the current sport series or super series either. So hate on the design language all you want, but if you think they all look the same you have to admit it's only because you can't be bothered to take a closer look.

 

So this is beautiful, inspirational, original and emotive design then. Except......well, no it isn't, is it?
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Yes, it is, you nailed it. Don't keep questioning yourself.


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Whew....Im glad I won all those design awards and made my money (and a bit of fame) before you pointed out that Im full of observational ignorance when it comes to product design...

 

I don't think I have said I don't like the 12C. General opinion was that it was unimaginative but personally I liked it and thought it looked great in the flesh - good enough to buy one. I wasn't too keen on the P1 but I briefly considered pushing the boat out to buy one of those too, at the point they hadn't sold out. So although its appearance is not IMO its best feature, it looked good enough to be the face of an £800k car - within the range of subjective licence. And that would leave the car itself which seemed like it's would be brilliant.

You obviously don't feel appearance is a strong suit for the Speciale but many, including me, do. Despite this, I suspect you wouldn't go as far as to think those who love it are insane or 'way off base'.

The P14 spy shot shows a car that in my view is hard not to be disappointed by. I'm not knocking McLaren, or suggesting, as others are, that they are too similar. In fact, the reverse. I'm saying I expected more, much more. The design seems unbalanced (too much cab-forward, with a stubby bonnet/hood), too derivative (echoes of 458 on the side, R8 in places and even RCZ) and not 'beautiful' (not a crime in itself, but an asset - if a car can be made to look as if most people acknowledge it to be beautiful, better that it is).

Rather than saying the models are too similar, I actually think there is not enough lineage in this car. What makes all McLarens similar is the layout - and McLaren can't change the fact that they only have one format, unlike Ferrari's three (mid V8 488, front V8 Cali and front V12 Lusso/F12). No point criticising that, they are a new company - do we expect more?

The 570 GT is a beautiful car - very nicely proportioned, balanced and flowing. Not perfect to my eyes because the front and rear light arrangements are only 'averagely good looking' for a sports car. I would like to see more of a connection from this car to the P14, but the light cluster, side profile, cab placement, in fact just about everything, seems to lack any reference to it's more lowly brother. The rear light cluster and the exhaust seem to be the only things that suggest the car is a McLaren. If Mercedes, or BMW, or even Audi had leaked this picture and said "surprise surprise, we built a 700hp supercar", save for the rear I could believe it.

So, I don't think this is up to the mark, and I'm really surprised.

 

All I said is all their cars are starting to look alike and you go off like I've disgraced Mother Teresa.

If you can't stand the heat, go back to the MacLife kitchen.

Did I say it was ugly, boring, horrible, etc etc. No. I said they are all starting to look alike. The horror! Go back and look at what Fchatters said about the FF!

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Don't say anything even remotely critical about McLaren. You might upset Noone1