Mercedes cheating with ride height

Are there not 5 other teams doing this including mercedes i.e. gearbox heating and hydraulic

actuators?

"The FIA ​​has already forbidden the pre-heating of the hydraulic actuators of the chassis at GP Azerbaijan. Five Formula 1 teams are said to have used the clever technique trick until then - including Mercedes."

" There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated.

An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment"

Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task.

 

Why don't they just let em run whatever ride height they want?
With an upper limit of course, we don't want a guy driving a bus.

 

Which brings me to my next questions? Is their collusion among those 5 teams? Also, with

regards to the FIA, are we back to the FRIC system dilemma where everyone thought it was

illegal but went on for 2+ yrs until this year when the FIA finally acted on it?

 

"There are loopholes at the moment that can not be forbidden. Mercedes has been suspected to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in their gearbox housing that they heat up almost “randomly”. It is assumed that oil ducts, containing oil from the gearbox, pass close besides or through the actuators. And thus would the heat radiation influence the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy that way because each team can make the gearbox shift as often and as long as they want, while the car sits in the garage. Hereby would the transmission oil and the surrounding environment be heated.
A FIA steward confirmed to AMUS that such a practice would not be punishable: “We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way.”

https://thejudge13.com/2017/07/11/new-loophole-discovered/


Clever these guys found another loophole in the system; given them credit for innovation.

 

There is no cheating here.

BTW what are the hydraulic actuators? I thought these cars had to have springs and shocks, since they banned active suspension.

The ride height has a minimum distance, that is all, and the whole body of the car moving is not a movable aero device as that would be ridiculous. A movable aero device is like DRS, for example.

Now if Mercedes are running lower than the minimum height then they are cheating but I do not read anything about that.
Pete

 

Oh, come on, they banned the mass dumper because it affected the aero, despite being INSIDE the car: they can ban anything if they want to.

 

My guess, this is plan B from Mercedes when they banned the FRIC system(or certain components of it) earlier this year; they made a few tweaks in the system, found the loophole and exploited it.

 

Ferrari have been suspected of heating their floor to deflect it downwards this season though, supposedly to create a ground-effect car*


(* No one has been able to prove this though, and as has always been the case with Ferrari's floors, they pass all of the relevant FIA tests)

 

rule 3.15. bingo

 

Like for example the two championship winning Benatton cars that Michael Schumacher drove people think they cheated yet FIA passed them in the FIA tests 2 years in a row.

 

Has Mercedes actually been found cheating by the FIA?

If yes, where is their findings, and what is the outcome?

It not, the title of this thread is misleading.

Accusation of cheating have to pass the test of scrutiny, and not be just the "I don't like that team so I'll say something insulting about it" usual slander.

 

If you pass all of the relevant FIA scrutineering tests then you cannot be cheating.

You might not be conforming to the spirit of the rules, and you might be manipulating some grey area loopholes, but technically, that's still not cheating, it's just a clever interpretation of the rules, and it's why the top engineers in F1 get paid so well.

 

So, the title of this thread is deliberately misleading.

It should have said: "Mercedes engineers interpret the rules to their advantage" .

 

At this moment in time, yes, the whole situation with the ride height appears to be a clever interpretation of the rules that does not breach the regulations - Hence it not being declared illegal and cheating by the FIA, so the headline is misleading (in the style of a sensationalised tabloid headline).

Should the FIA investigate the situation and publicly declare that Mercedes have been running an illegal car, then it can be claimed that Mercedes were cheating.

Should the FIA decide to tighten up or change the test procedures regarding this issue, and Mercedes have to modify their car to continue to conform to the regulations, then again, so long as it passed scrutineering every time it was checked, it was not cheating.

The problem is william, plenty on here cannot understand that simple logic (thankfully, it seems that both you and I can! )

 

+1

Then we have some other posters getting '''annoyed with the FIA'' ,it's hilarious.

 

Again what are these actuators you speak of, and how does heating the ones for the rear suspension lower the car.

Again I thought they had to use springs and shock absorbers since the banning of active suspension??
Pete

 

There is no 'minimum' ride height, they run with a plank that contains metal skid blocks so if they run low and grind it away they get penalised.

 

Here ya go Pete. Hope this helps.

(refers to below image)
The top image shows a spring return actuator. The maximum spring compression pushes back on the piston and the hydraulic fluid exits the cylinder and returns to its starting position. The bottom image is a double-acting cylinder where fluid enters either side of the piston depending on the desired motion.


Hydraulic Actuators Advantages

• Hydraulic actuators are rugged and suited for high-force applications. They can produce forces 25 times greater than pneumatic cylinders of equal size. They also operate in pressures of up to 4,000 psi.

• Hydraulic motors have high horsepower-to-weight ratio by 1 to 2 hp/lb greater than a pneumatic motor.

• A hydraulic actuator can hold force and torque constant without the pump supplying more fluid or pressure due to the incompressibility of fluids

• Hydraulic actuators can have their pumps and motors located a considerable distance away with minimal loss of power.

Disadvantages

• Hydraulics will leak fluid. Like pneumatic actuators, loss of fluid leads to less efficiency. However, hydraulic fluid leaks lead to cleanliness problems and potential damage to surrounding components and areas.

• Hydraulic actuators require many companion parts, including a fluid reservoir, motors, pumps, release valves, and heat exchangers, along with noise-reduction equipment. This makes for linear motions systems that are large and difficult to accommodate
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Mercedes Loophole discovered.

During the Grand Prix weekend in Baku the FIA had made it clear to the teams that it does not allow them to preheat their hydraulic components of their chassis. Five teams are directly involved with such preheating activities, even when the cars are parked in the Parc Fermé. The Germans of Auto, motor und sport are reporting the next saga in the hydraulic suspension series.

According to AMUS Ferrari suspects Mercedes to have solved their tire troubles on an illegal way. Of course the engineers of the German team react differently. So how much of it is true? Well, there is the fact that the hydraulic suspension, as we knew it in 2016, has been forbidden earlier this year. But are there legal ways around these prohibited regulations?

The answer to that question seems to come from Mercedes. If you make a new system you just have to make it so complicated that the FIA stewards can not asses it in its totality. But Mercedes is only one of five teams who are under suspect. The other four are Red Bull Racing, Toro Rosso, Force India and McLaren. So how did they do it?

All of these five teams have one thing in common. All of them said goodbye to the classic shock absorbers and rear stabilizers. Instead they all went for a hydraulic actuators approach, with which they can control the ride height, the rolling behavior and any up or down movement the car makes. And, in order to hide them from the outside world, these actuators are placed inside the gearbox housing.

Samples have shown that all five of them used preheated oil in those actuators. They preheated them even when the cars where under strict Parc Fermé rules. By heating up the oil the teams are changing the characteristics of said oil, and with it the characteristics of the car. For instance, the teams were able to give their cars the ideal ground clearance before the start of the race.

Force India is one team that had preheated their hydraulic elements with hot air, in the garage. All this in order to get the oil at the temperatures it would eventually get while driving. Technician Andy Green doesn't deny this: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil warms up during driving, you have to calculate precisely how you can adjust the ground clearance while stationary, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later, during the race."

Under the Parc Fermé rules, between qualifying and the race, the car can not be technically altered, unless it involves repairs for safety reasons. And this can only be done after getting clearance by the FIA. The FIA has ​​explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" they mean heating systems, which are connected to chassis components. As this would violate the Parce fermé rules. It is seen as a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup, like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the Grand Prix the technicians were, once again, warned that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to drive extremely fast during the laps to the starting grid so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car is where they want it."

So has this put an end to all the trickery? Not quite...

There are loopholes at the moment that can not be forbidden. Mercedes has been suspected to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in their gearbox housing that they heat up almost "randomly". It is assumed that oil ducts, containing oil from the gearbox, pass close besides or through the actuators. And thus would the heat radiation influence the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy that way because each team can make the gearbox shift as often and as long as they want, while the car sits in the garage. Hereby would the transmission oil and the surrounding environment be heated.

An FIA steward confirmed to AMUS that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."

Mercedes' rivals became suspicious when the German team got their tire problems under control, and after Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help with the handling of the tire rims. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are far less than they were the races before. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always get the tires to work perfectly.

In the end there is only one way to close these loopholes: to outlaw hydraulic suspensions. But to get that kind of rule change, for 2018, there has to be a total unanimity. And we know how F1 teams are...


https://**********.com/p/mercedes-loophole-discovered-fQ31umCpRUiwnKr4YA7WgA?iid=QvKf7p9gTQmqZYGPI7MeLQ (the asterisks is driv3trib3)

 

Love it. This kind of stuff is what makes F1 so special.

 

Thanks jgonzalesm6.

Pete