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Mercedes - MGU-H in road cars soon

Discussion in 'F1' started by william, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Mercedes reveals first use of F1's MGU-H in road cars

    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-use-f1-mgu-h-tech-road-cars/4808159/

    Formula 1's oft-criticised MGU-H technology is finally about to be adapted to road car use, with Mercedes revealing plans to use it on its next generation of vehicles.
    The MGU-H, which converts hot exhaust gases in to electric energy, has proven to be the most challenging element of F1's turbo hybrid power units since they arrived in 2014.
    The headaches it has caused some manufacturers to get on top of the technology, allied to the costs of doing so, have led to several pushes to try to rid the sport of it for the long term.
    But Mercedes, which has won every championship during the turbo hybrid era, has long argued about the knowledge benefits to the automotive industry that have come from pushing the concept – and it has now proven it by declaring that its ideas are trickling down to road cars.

    The understanding that has come from the MGU-H is to be applied in a new electric exhaust gas turbocharger, which is in the final development stages before it will be added to new production models from AMG-Mercedes.
    Tobias Moers, the chairman of the board of management at Mercedes-AMG, said: "We have clearly defined our goals for an electrified future.

    "In order to reach them, we are relying on discrete and highly innovative components as well as assemblies.

    "With this move we are strategically supplementing our modular technology and tailoring it to our performance requirements. In a first step this includes the electrified turbocharger - an example of the transfer of Formula 1 technology to the road, something with which we will take turbocharged combustion engines to a previously unattainable level of agility."

    The idea behind the road-car version of the MGU-H is not to boost performance through the delivery of extra horsepower – like in F1 – but to help improve engine response time and minimise turbo lag.
    It will use a slim electric motor (just 4cm) integrated onto the charger shaft, between the turbine wheel on the exhaust side and the compressor wheel on the fresh air side.
    The motor will drive the compressor wheel before it accepts the exhaust gas flow. The turbocharger runs at 170,000rpm.

    Its use in the road car should improve response time to throttle input and make a better overall driving feel – while also allowing higher torque at lower engine speeds.
    There have been points in recent years where F1's engine manufacturers have discussed ditching the MGU-H as part of a move to make things easier – and potentially attract new entrants.
    However, the amount of power the MGU-H delivers would force dramatic changes to the concept behind F1's fuel-efficient engines in a bid to make up the loss. Plus it would mean throwing away all the knowledge and investment the current entrants have made.

    Last year, F1's Mercedes engine chief Andy Cowell made clear that he felt losing the MGU-H would be a backwards steps.
    "The MGU-H has been blamed for the lack of noise and for high complexity," he told Motorsport.com. "It's been referred to as a miracle. There are four technology companies that have made it work.
    "To make up the power difference we're going to have to increase the fuel flow rate, which is a backwards step. It's not progress. It feels like a backwards step when the development work has been done."
     
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  3. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    Looks more like an electric turbo than a proper MGUH, but oh, well, whatever the marketing guys say.
     
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  4. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Who said F1 technology does not bleed down to passenger automobiles.
     
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  5. 1monza

    1monza Karting
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    Like Mercedes road cars don't have enough problems with reliability. No thanks, I'll stick to my ICE.
     
  6. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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    Yep its just an electric turbo.
     
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  8. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Yes, an electric turbo powered by heat from the exhaust gases transformed into electricity, rather than the gas flow itself.
    That's the trick, another step in energy recovery.
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    The electric motor is used two ways::

    a) to spin up the turbine decreasing lag
    b) to suck energy from the exhaust gasses to prevent having the waster gate blow off.
    ....that energy is used to power the hybrid motor for more power and lower fuel consumption.
     
  10. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, that stuff Garrett is doing is an electric engine powered by batteries spooling the compressor to reduce lag and blow at low rpms. Very nice, but the idea has been around before MGU-H in F1, and the MGU-H does more than moving the compressor.
     
  11. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Rookie
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    Just another overly complicated way to do something that is already being accomplished more simply. The modern tech folks can't see the forest for the trees.
     
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  13. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    How does one take energy from the exhaust and convert it into electricity more simply?
     
  14. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    The MGU-H - Motor Generator Unit, Heat - uses heat from the car's waste exhaust gases to drive a generator - the same way the MGU-K uses energy. This converted energy can be sent directly to the ES or the MGU-K. The MGU-H has the ability to work in both ways. It can suck energy out, or, put energy back in.
     
  15. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    But that stuff they´re selling for road cars only spools the compressor, not charges the battery. So, it´s an electric turbo.
     
  16. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    I suppose it could do both, be an electric motor to spool the turbine at low revs, and a generator charging the battery at high revs.
    That's the aim of that system: recover wasted energy.
     
  17. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    At high revs it works as a conventional turbo. Quoting from that article:

    "The idea behind the road-car version of the MGU-H is not to boost performance through the delivery of extra horsepower – like in F1 – but to help improve engine response time and minimise turbo lag.”

    Not a bad thing per se, but the marketing department has embelished it with the reference to the F1 and the folks of motorsport.com either didn't check it or have Mercedes in their advertisers portfolio.
     
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Years ago, some cars had turbochargers for high revs, and superchargers for slow revs to avoid the turbo lag. (Lancia rally cars, for example).
    Now the same is obtained by the MGU-H that spools the turbo at low revs when there isn't enough gas flow to keep the boost.
    The same electric motor turns into a generator charging the battery at high revs when the turbo is fully efficient.
    It's not unusual to have electric motors turning into generators, but this is achieved with the MGU-H in very high temperature environment.
    If they cracked it in F1 (and Mercedes certainly did!) bringing its benefit in street cars is logical.
    Hence the reason why constructors want to keep experimenting new technologies in F1 and not return to obsolete NA V12 !
    I read that the truck and the shipping industry are attentive to that technology too to apply it to large diesel engines.
     
  19. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Well, as william looks to be refractory and to just put an end to this: my point is that this is not a MGUH, but an electric turbo. Not the same, not necessarily related to F1.
     
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  20. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Audi already was already working on it in 2012. And another company introduced electric turbo back in 2009.

    It's simply marketing talk to say it's F1 tech. It's an electric turbo, simple as that, nothing to do with F1.
     

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