Merged: 2008 rules

Bernie and Max hitting the hard stuff again. IMHO they are trying to make F1 into a Spec racing series.

 

The above manifesto sounds like the rationale behind FIA netting a number of lucrative sole-source contracts for the "FIA-approved" parts that will be required.

I don't get this. In other sports, we don't dictate the way an athlete is allowed to train (apart from performance-enhancing drugs). We don't tell him that he's only allowed to run 5 miles a day, or only do 50 pushups a week, or that his shoes must be purchased from the standards organisation.

FIA wants to so tightly control costs to encourage smaller teams to enter (or re-enter) F1 at the expense of the established players. I'm beginning to see why the big teams continue their discussion on not resigning the Concorde agreement.

Instead of instituting more stupid lower-level rules (tire changes this season, anyone?), I think FIA should incorporate some sort of "expenditure cap." Allocate to each team a standarized maximum of (insert your favorite figure here) dollars to do with what they will. Hey, BAR wants to blow $100 million on outfitting twin turbos? Great. Williams wants to spend $30 million more than anyone else testing in the wind tunnel? Fantastic. Ferrari wants to spend $50 million to fix their Bridgestones? More power to them. Jordan wants to hire no-name Formula 3000 drivers so that they can pay them only $1 million for the season? Sounds like a plan. Heck, maybe teams should be able to pick up constructor points for every $1 million that they come in under the cap. So long as their overall costs stay under the cap, we (the FIA) won't even blink.

Micromanagement doesn't work. FIA would do well to give the teams a little creative license, even in the context of cost reduction and caps.

There's my $0.02. Ah, feel better now...

 

Technically speaking, those rules suck.

signed,

The essence of F1

 

LMAO ! Its official the FIA have lost there minds.........way to go guys and thanks for ruining F1 for me.

 

I agree about the spec series. The only reason I watched F1 was because it wasn't a spec series. I watch it for the engineering rivarly, not so much the drivers. If these rules really become true, it will be a sad day for me.

The only solution imo, without being a spec series, to this "cost" problem is for the FIA to give each of the 10 teams $100 million or whatever amount (not a cap, give them real money) and say they cannot spend more than that and you cannot roll over any extra to next season. That will be some real engineering competitiveness imo.

 

Well, I guess as often I'm the contrarian on here:

I like the proposals for the most part:

+ Engineering of chassis and motor remains in the hands of the teams. That is really "The car".

+ Driving skills become a lot more important because of the ban/control of electronics. Unfortunately that brings the standard gearbox with it. A negative, but if it means that drivers have to actually show their ability at changing gears, then so be it. Technically this could probably also achieved without going for a single spec gearbox.

+ One tire manufacturer only. Great! About time!

- The thing I don't like is the one car only and no spare cars.

Now regardless of what we think, I bet this is proposal is not worth the paper it's on: The teams will simply veto all of the above. But for the time being it gives us something to yap about.

PS: As far as the FIA and its technical ability is concerned to actually provide all these "FIA approved and delivered" parts: Just think how long it took them to get the standard refueling rigs to work. And still sometimes these things go belly up. No way they're gonna provide all these vital components.

 

I tell you what Andreas lets both go to FIA headquarters and see what color the smoke is when it comes out of there chimney

 

I LOVE these rules. Back to racing!!!!!!!!! Wide track cars! Slicks!! Manual shifters!! No ridiculous aero do-dads!! No traction control of any sort! No tire war!!! YES!

What you guys call the death of tech is actually the birth of driving. There will always be room for technical innovation, but it cannot be allowed to suck the life out of the sport.

They are finally getting it, and they finally have the nerve to trash some of these awful changes like grooved tires and narrow cars and tc. None of that is what I turn of the tv for, it's cool, but I can easily live without it. This will be such a purer form of racing.

 

Hehe.

In an almost literal sense you're probably on to something: Bernie's succession will be a big deal when the time comes.

PS: Another thing I like about the proposal is the starter built into the cars. Something that always bothered me and something that might actually safe a few drivers when stranded.

 

We have that already its called the IRL

 

Again I'm not an IRL expert by any means, but I think even *IF* they would accept all of this proposal (which they never will) we're still a LONG shot away from IRL:

- Road racing
- individual chassis
- individual engines
- standing start

And most importantly as Koby said: Engineering! Remember this is F1 with "unlimited" budgets. They will find a niche area to make these things faster no matter how much you rule spec.

 

exactly, all this old technology is common place now anyway, we loose nothing by throwing it away

 

I remember back in the late eighties there were similar discussions about banning a lot of the electronic driving aids and the fundamental question was whether a F1 car should be the technical pinnacle of motorsports engineering or whether the F1 Championship should crown the best racer at the end of the year.

So do we want these hyper cars with all the whizzles and bells as they are now, but which some say could be driven by a monkey (Lauda, later on proofed wrong) or do we want more basic cars that need "real men" (or women) as drivers? You can make arguments either way.

 

It's nice to be able to brag about the tech to friends who are fans of other series over a beer, but at the end of the day I have never turned on the tv to see a paddle shifter or a carbon brake disk. It is status quo anyway, once everyone has it, it becomes pointless.

 

Brilliantly phrased.

And remember how many (on here as well) feel about Nigel Mansell's championship win? Almost any driver in the field that year could have clinched the title in that car. So what does that really say about F1? Not that Nigel didn't deserve it for all his efforts and bad luck in previous years, but that's another story.

 

EXACTLY!

I LOVE these rules! F1 will once again be a true drivers championship demanding hard core skill. The men will be seperated from the boys!

Lots of mechanical grip, minimal aero grip, brakes that you must manage, a gear box you must actually shift, tons of HP, cutting edge chassis and suspension design and NO software cheating or skill reducing electronic driver aids!

A constructors title will be hard no matter what the rules because the challenge is the same regardless of the rules: build the best car withing whatever rules you are given. F1 is high tech and will remain so. You can bet they will push the envelope within these rules in every way possible.

But now we will have a real drivers championship. These cars will be HARD to drive on the edge. They will demand maximum skill. THEY WILL ALLOW PASSING!

Having spec brakes, no traction control and manual gearboxes are key. In days pasts, many passes were done by one driver taking advantage of anothers mistake. Brakes abused and overheated.... a missed shift.... on the power too hard giving wheel spin for an instant..... with todays car the ability to make such mistakes is largely taken away and this is one reason we dont see that much passing.

Also, dramatically reducing aero grip and replacing it with increased mechanical grip will make passing much more viable. Drivers will be able to run closer and make moves on each other!

I would also expect more new teams coming into F1 with these rules. It will be far easier to buy a chassis and engine, put together a team and have a go.

Remember F1 in the early to mid 1970s? A golden era. These rules could lead to an even better version of the same theme!

Now we will have just as good a constructors championship and a GREAT drivers championship!



Terry

 

At first blush, I must say, I *love* much of it. Having spec electronics, not so much, but getting rid of semi-auto gearboxes, reducing aero grip, and going to spec tires are all really GOOD things. The main criterion is: "What will produce better RACING?"!!! Of course, I don't want F1 to be NASCAR-IZED, nor even CART-ized, but the spending today is getting ridiculous, and the quality of the RACING has been going downhill for years.

I *love* the thought of going back to manual gearboxes and getting rid of traction control and such - this way, it becomes MUCH more **DRIVER** oriented. As I've argued before, I think getting rid of semi-auto gearboxes makes things MUCH more interesting.

The reason that F1 hadn't banned semi-auto gearboxes (and thereby allow it to completely ban traction control!) is because missed shifts = $$$$ spent replacing engines. Nowadays, a driver can concentrate on keeping the line and preventing himself from being passed, while just using his thumb to trigger the appropriate set of shifts for the upcoming order. A lot different from having to go from fifth down to second while braking 100% with Senna 6 inches behind your rear wing.

A couple of years ago, I read a book about Ferrari F1, wherein Michele Alboreto was quoted as saying something along the lines of him missing the days of manual shifting gearboxes. Because, if you were pressuring someone from behind, he was distracted enough in thinking to protect the line that he might miss a shift, thereby allowing you to make the pass. As pointed out, this was one reason why Ayrton Senna was such a phenonmenal success - he was a master of passing. You'd be driving along, look into your mirror, and see that yellow and green helmet in that orange and white McLaren, and you'd think, ohmigod, I've got Senna right behind me, what do I do, then you'd miss a shift and he'd be by in a blast. I used to LOVE watching Senna or Mansell completely aggravating someone in front until that person screwed up and allowed them by. Can you imagine how, say, the new young jocks of F1 today would feel if they saw Michael's helmet in their mirrors? Can't just hit a button anymore, but would have to balance the clutch and gearbox....

It's just too EASY for the F1 driver of today (no doubt they are still the best in the world at what they do, but I still think it's less difficult than it was 15 years ago). If today's F1 pilot had to manually shift a six(or more)-speed gearbox, and operate a clutch, while also applying brake, throttle and steering, wouldn't that make for a more INTERESTING SHOW? No doubt that semi-auto boxes make for FASTER F1 cars, but we want better RACING!

The other rule changes are also good. Go back to slicks and get rid of downforce? YES! I've often argued that we needed to run full slicks while killing aero, to force reliance more on mechanical grip rather than aero grip, to allow more passing.

And I've suggest adding starters before. I was thrilled to see an F1 driver actually USE the reverse gear (required) at the Monaco race (when traffic was stacked up at the hairpin); imagine a driver stalling a car after spinning off, and being able to restart and rejoin? Awesome.

I doubt very much that these rules will be adopted wholesale, but if costs do go down, and if the "show" gets better, I think we'd all be in agreement that this result would be great. Huzzah!

vty,

--Dennis

 

Sorry, I am afraid the concorde agreement expires by then. Thus the teams cannot veto the regulations. Those rules are on a take it or leave it offer.

These rules are a good start but more needs to be done.

1) Engines should only be supplied by Ferrari
2) Chassis should only be supplied by Ferrari
3) Tires will only be supplied by Bridgestone

I hope you understand where I am getting with this post...

Red Bull have the right idea by switching to Ferrari engines next year.

 

Yeah, you're right. I remember the Concorde agreement expiring in 2007. Hmm.

 

As I said... this is just the start. The rules do not go far enough!

 

Well, I see sponsors really liking these rules. It could cut costs of running a competitive team in half.

If could also see drivers liking it, particularly those who really are skilled (or think they are... which is all of them). They will know that these cars will demand the best and only the best will win thus teams demands for the best driver will go up and thus driver pay will increase!

The other teams with some manufacturere support may attempt to go off on their own and start their won series. But Bernie has the TV deals and Ferrari. F1 will remain Bernies and Max's F1. With it being cheaper and still having the bigger audience, that is where the sponsors will go. With this formula yielding closer and better racing, ratings will go up.

Dont bet against Bernie.



Terry

 

Go to manuals, awesome idea. 5spd, 6spd, 7spd, whatever you want, but it is controlled by a mechanical linkage and has a clutch pedal. Weed out the men from the boys. No sequentials, etc.

Open engine regs way up. With all the money saved in freezing aero, brake, gearbox, etc. development, the teams can afford to focus on one element. Make it the engine. Tell em 2.4L NA with circular pistons, do whatever the hell you want. Fans like engines... this isn't rocket science that people are more interested in seeing/hearing a 30,000rpm exotic alloyed beast than they are in seeing Bridgestone's new compound.

I like the chassis "box" idea. Standard dimensions, if it doesn't fit in, too bad. Help reduce aero, and prevent odd appendages like this year's awkward rear wings. I'd also get rid of multi element wings, no gilette mach 3s anymore… one solid wing that can fit in the FIA "box" for that part of the car. Make it any shape you want.

I like the idea of going back to wide slicks, honestly knock aero down 90% and them let em run slicks like the early 90s and I'd be happy. God, could you picture actually seeing oversteer again, I'm sure all the fans would hate that… And on/off rain days would be awesome.

Keep carbon brakes. I don't see being a huge cost since the days of berrylium calipers (and then the couple years they spent developing non berrylium alloys .0001 off the max stretch limits set in by the FIA, 40nm or something along those lines). Seems all they really do now is change the caliper shape, packaging, etc. to fit the new chassis.

And make the lowest scoring driver (in the points standing) wear a clown suit each race he remains in last place. Because that is all he is, here for our amusement, so stop paying for a ride like a huge tool and dance for us.

 

I for one also like the new rules but, lets go over some things

There's nothing in there about no sequentials. A sequential box is operated by mechanical linkage. As a matter of fact I think the FIA would like to only have sequential boxes as it eliminates bypassing gears on downshifts so a driver can't accidentally detonate a VERY expensive engine by mistake. If they did, well that'd would be counter productive to reducing cost. Oh, and if some of you remember the ZERO shift gearbox in RaceCarEngineering could be controlled by mechanical linkage.

I love engines as well. But, cutting cost in one area and the expanding them in another is again, counterproductive.

A lot of you are also missing the new wheel and tire rule here. I'm assuming we might be seeing what, 17" wheels with low profile tires? How bizarre will that look?! It will change a lot of the data current teams have and really change things. Don't forget the current high side wall acts as an extra spring on each corner of the car. I remember back in the early 90s when everyone was using mono-shocks/springs upfront a lot of focus was suddenly put on the tire and specifically sidewall flex. A reduction of these sidewalls will mean (should mean) a much more responsive car, if you could believe that.

It should be fun. But, I still think the break away series is still a distinct possibility. After all Ferrari is no where near being in the running and the fans are having a great time. Which is good for the FIA, but also for those thinking of taking their dollies and playing someplace else.

 

This whole thing just sounds like a glorified "salary cap" being placed on the sport just for the sake that the playing field becomes more linear - there is no guarantee that this will even happen - at best it is wishful thinking. Why not continue separating the "have's" from the "have-not's"... F1 is the pinnancle of automotive engineering and should remain so.