Merged: Bugatti T22 Brescia #2461 recovered from Lago Maggiore | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Merged: Bugatti T22 Brescia #2461 recovered from Lago Maggiore

Discussion in 'Bugatti' started by Stefan Dierkes, Jul 15, 2009.

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  1. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    Likely a number with at least six zeros after it. :D
     
  2. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
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    Sonoma, CA
    awsome find: can't believe someone in that tossing didn't try to make a 'special' night time recovery.

    What I don't understand is, knowing governments, why they didn't sell the car for the import tax on the open market......part of that story needs better clarification....more like a drunken run off the end of a pier, someone drowned and all the facts lay hidden.
     
  3. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Itamar Ben-Gvir
    kewl story
     
  4. Bxtech

    Bxtech Formula Junior

    May 4, 2006
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    Wow...........great story! Thanks for posting!
     
  5. dbw

    dbw Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2005
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    palo alto ca
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    dave
    well guys..the brecia is the 308gt4 of the bugatti family...not cheap but not in stratospheric 35b or 57sc territory....this car looks to be a late model with front brakes and the long wheelbase -which would most likely be a t23....a short wheelbase model with twin magnetos would be much more desirable...hard to break low 6 digits with the best example available...to me, the bodywork looks a bit dodgy even for the time [coachbuilders or dealers plate notwithstanding...] such an awkwardly long tail [and single cockpit] on essentially a 4 passenger chassis is an anomaly for the period..except perhaps for the english! and in the late thirties, when this car was supposedly tossed, it was worth way less than used austin 10.

    don't be too hard on me- as an ex-owner of 2 gp cars..[37, 35b] i recently got a t23...nice car, good condition and excellent provenance for 50k ish. the river car would have to be pretty cheap as a lot of work needs to be done.

    vive la marque!...or whatever.
     
  6. jjmcd

    jjmcd Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2004
    490
    #31 jjmcd, Aug 31, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Wasn't someone thinking about rescuing a vintage Ferrari from a lake in Canada?

    An article about this Bugatti appeared in the most recent Octane magazine. Below are some articles from the web, along with some pics of the lake car and some others of Type 14 Brescias (similar to the Type 22 but shorter wheelbase) in better condition...

    Here is a video of the car after it was pulled from the lake. It looks like the side that was in the muck was protected - the other side of the body rusted away.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5lL9d-Nuqc


    ======================
    Rusty Rescue of a Bugatti in Switzerland‎

    July 16th, 2009

    Original Bugatti’s are still to be found.

    Last Sunday a diving team lifted the wreckage of a Bugatti Brescia from the depths of Lago Maggiore near Ascona in Switzerland.

    For seventy years it had slumbered at a depth of more than fifty metres. Isn’t it amazing how these things survive?

    How the Bugatti Brescia found its way into the Lake Maggiore is not completely clear.

    According to current knowledge, explains Heinz Müller, spokesman of the foundation, a Swiss dealer had ordered three Bugattis.

    These cars were brought to Switzerland, but only two of the buyers paid the import duties.

    The third car, with duties unpaid, apparently was buried in the lake by customs officials and over time slid deeper and deeper into the lake.

    Deeply covered in sludge, the car partially resisted corrosion. Even the tires were still filled with air. After the car was recovered and sat in the sun, a tire blew with a loud bang.

    The car will now undergo a full restoration and will be auctioned off to benefit the Damiano Tamagni Foundation, which works to prevent youth violence.

    ===================

    This makes finding a Bugatti in your garden shed seem quite normal.

    In the late 1920s three Bugattis were imported into Switzerland but only two of the new owners could pay the import taxes. The third got dumped into Lake Maggiore in 1937 when the tax man caught up with the owner. It’s a T22 Brescia Modifiee (chassis no. 2461) and it has been in 50m of water for over 70 years. The car was discovered in 1967 by divers in the lake and has been know by Bugatti enthusiasts all that time. It was rescued on the 12th July 2009 by a volunteer effort organised by Jens Börlin and his company Rescue Sub Ascona. The plan is to sell the car to help fund a the fight against youth violence on the part of the Damiano Tamagni Foundation.
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  7. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    So it was dunked by customs officials? Why would they do that?
     
  8. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    With those wacky, fun loving Swiss you never do know;)
     
  9. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    Ironic that this thing survived as well as it did - when the Swiss deliberately wanted to destroy it.

    And yet that 57 Plymouth hardtop somebody put into a supposedly sealed and dry time vault in Tulsa, Oklahoma had about as much metal left as my old barbeque grill when the bottom fell out last weekend.
     
  10. Tad Cody

    Tad Cody Formula 3

    Sep 9, 2006
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    Take a guess...
    I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but...

    How the hell do you 'find' a rusty heap of a car 50m (150 feet!) deep in a lake?

    Perhaps more importantly, is it a finder's keepers sort of thing then?

    And lastly, where is this vintage Ferrari in a Canadian lake?

    <runs to get swimsuit and snorkel>

    :)

    -Tad
     
  11. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    A fair number of Bugatti enthusiasts have known of it's existence for decades. ;)
     
  12. WJHMH

    WJHMH Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Amazing story, I just stumbled upon this.
     
  13. Bill_OBrien

    Bill_OBrien Formula Junior

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    #38 Bill_OBrien, Nov 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2009
  14. BoxerCrazy

    BoxerCrazy Formula Junior

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    #39 BoxerCrazy, Dec 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2009
    I too read the lake Ferrari thread and while Bill has very valid points, i would LOVE to know the how and why of that "storied ferrari" in the lake!!!!!

    doug


     
  15. krisdisk

    krisdisk Formula Junior

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    Is this car sold yet? I thought it was going to be sold on auction for charity. So I don't think it'll be cheap, even for scrap metal. I also think one side was buried in mud so it didn't waste away. Good luck to the restorers, they'll have ALOT of research and work ahead. I'd say, put this in a museum like they did with the Plymouth.

    Emaille is french for porcelain enamel, but I can't say any car was ever made in this material?
     
  16. Michiel Mobiel

    Michiel Mobiel Formula 3

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  17. krisdisk

    krisdisk Formula Junior

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  18. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
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  19. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Wow, pretty interesting story on how it go down there! I've heard of classic warplanes being found at the bottom of lakes, but never something that like...
     
  20. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
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    No joke. I'd say that is taking 'tax protests' too far!
     
  21. camchain

    camchain Formula Junior

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    Ron Hetherington
    #46 camchain, Jan 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2010
  22. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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  23. dbw

    dbw Formula Junior

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    dave
    ......sub-merged?.....;)
     
  24. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
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    Bonham's description:

    Sold in aid of the Fondazione Damiano Tamagi

    Over the course of the past few months, the car offered here has become one of the most celebrated of all Bugattis, having lain submerged beneath the waters of Lake Maggiore in Switzerland for more than 70 years. The whereabouts of the sunken Bugatti had been known to the local sub aqua club for many years but in February 2008 a tragedy occurred that would eventually lead to its retrieval. On the 1st of that month, Damiano Tamagni was attacked by three youths and beaten so severely that he later died from his injuries. Damiano and his father Maurizio were both members of the local sub aqua club in Ascona (Centro Sport Subacquei Salvataggio Ascona, CSSS) and it was decided to raise the Bugatti and use the funds from its sale to further the work of a charity set up in Damiano's name, 'Fondazione Damiano Tamagi', which seeks to address the issue of juvenile violence.
    But how did the Bugatti come to be in Lake Maggiore in the first place? Subsequent research has uncovered much of its history. On the 11th April 1925, chassis number '2461' was registered in Nancy, France in the name of Georges Paiva, 49 Rue des Dominicains with the number '8843 N 5'. A small brass plate found on the car after its removal from the lake bears the name 'Georges Nielly, 48 Rue Nollet, Paris' but the registration plate is only partly legible, the last digits being 'RE 1'. This registration was issued in Paris between May and June 1930, which perhaps indicates that Georges Nielly bought the car earlier in 1930 at Nancy and had it registered in Paris in his name. These French registration plates have remained on the Bugatti ever since.
    The Bugatti chassis number plate is missing, as is the enamel Bugatti radiator badge. Apart from that, all the relevant numbers are to be found in their usual places. The chassis number '2461' is on the round boss, located on the right front engine bearer (on the side of the exhaust manifold and steering-box) while the engine number '879' is visible on the little round boss, located on top in the middle of the cam box, as well as at the front face of the lower crankcase, next to the water pump.
    The gearbox bears the number '964' at the back as well as the usual place on the cover. The rear axle has no number, which is normal for a Bugatti Brescia, but the ratio is stamped on the central casing and reads '12 x 45'. The radiator is made by Chausson, as indicated on a plate just above the cranking handle, while the two rear spring carriers still bear the little brass plates with 'EB, Bugatti, Molsheim (Alsace)' on them. Contrary to the factory data, which mentions a Solex carburettor, the actual carburettor on the car is a bronze Zenith, correct for this type of Bugatti. The two magnetos (twin ignition) are made by SEV and mounted in the middle of the dashboard as usual for this type of car.
    There are indications that the body may have been modified or replaced, the first one being, probably, a simple racing body lacking electrics and mudguards. The valances below the bonnet are in two pieces, where normally they would be in one piece, while the mudguards are slightly flared at the rear, which is unusual for 1925. All this possibly indicates a modified or new body made at the end of the 1920s.
    So far, it has not been possible to determine with certainty the identity of the Bugatti's owner in Ascona. However, the most likely candidate is Marco (Max) Schmuklerski, a Zurich-born architect of Polish descent. He is known to have stayed in Ascona from 17th July 1933 until 25th August 1936 when he left and returned to Zurich. At Ascona he designed, among other buildings, the 'Casa Bellaria' an apartment block that has only recently been demolished. If Marco Schmuklerski studied architecture at the famous Beaux Arts school in Paris, it is possible that he bought the Bugatti from Georges Nielly and brought it back to Switzerland but without paying any import duties. It is also possible that he acquired the car from a French tourist (or client) at Ascona. Whatever the case, the Bugatti has always been driven in Switzerland with its last French plates and import duties have never been paid. Nor has the car ever been registered with Swiss plates.
    The story going around Ascona is that Marco Schmuklerski left in 1936, leaving behind the Bugatti, which was stored in the yard of a local building contractor, Barra. Its owner at this time is not known, but the local customs officers knew of the car's existence and insisted on payment of the import duties owed. At that point these duties may have amounted to more than the value of the Bugatti, which was 11 years old and well used. In the case of non-payment of the duties, the car had to be destroyed and the simplest way to do so was to tip it into the nearby lake. To facilitate its recovery the Bugatti was attached to a heavy chain, but when this finally corroded away the car fell to the lakebed at a depth of 53 metres.
    It remained there, undiscovered, until 18th August 1967 when diver Ugo Pillon located the mythical Bugatti, which was lying on its left side, partly buried in the mud. Pillon had been searching for it for some time and after its rediscovery the car became a popular target members of the local sub aqua club. On 12th July 2009, after a 73-year sojourn in Lake Maggiore, the Bugatti was finally rescued from the lake by Jens Boerlin and his comrades from Ascona's sub aqua club. Local dignitaries and members of the Bugatti Club Suisse were in attendance, and the whole story was covered in a report by Renato de Lorenzi shown on Television Ticinese (RSI 1) on 23rd July 2009.
    The Bugatti was transferred by crane onto a trailer for inspection by the sizeable crowd of onlookers. Its long immersion in the lake had resulted in extensive deterioration, ferrous components being badly affected, particularly on the car's exposed right-hand side. Other materials like wood, aluminium, brass, rubber, etc have survived in much better condition. It would, of course, be possible to restore the car, but it has been estimated that only some 20% of the original is reusable. Alternatively, a faithful replica could be created, using '2461' as a pattern, for approximately the same cost as a full restoration. Arguably, it would be more appropriate to preserve the Brescia in its current state for static display, but that is for the fortunate new owner to decide.
    No reserve

    €70,000 to 90,000

    http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=WholeCataloguePrint&iSaleNo=18191
     
  25. Il Vecchio

    Il Vecchio F1 Rookie

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    What a terrific centerpiece for my study...
     

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