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MERGED: Fiorano Track times for various cars

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Brian C. Stradale, Nov 14, 2003.

  1. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    I know this has been posted on the old forum.
    But I've searched a dozen different ways and cannot find it.
    I've also Google'd the whole Internet and can't find it.

    Can anyone post the list of "best lap times" for various Ferrari models on the Fiorano test track??

    Here's all I could find... but I know there's a list 2-3x as long out there somewhere...

    0'56"33 F2003-GA
    1'27"00 F50
    1'28"00 Stradale
    1'29"60 F40
    1'31"50 360 Modena
    1'33"00 575MM (app.?)

    360GT? 550? F2002? 333SP? 355? ...
     
  2. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    Aug 31, 2001
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    Good question Brian, I'm anxious to see this info as well. Especially for the 333SP. Wow the Stradale is nearly as quick as the F50 and quicker than the F40. Now that's saying something.
     
  3. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    Just a little side note about using Fiorano lap times...
    The track was changed a bit in 1992 from it's original 1972 design.
     
  4. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Yes, and the tire rubber has changed dramatically over the years. But still, the times are interesting.

    Ideally, the factory would sponsor an event to collect many of the models back to Fiorano on one day, put modern rubber on each, and let a couple of the Ferrari test engineers and their owners each try to establish best time for each model. It'll never happen. And even if it did, it would have flaws.

    Sooo, I'm satisfied just seeing the Fiorano times quoted for each model... each done with Test Drivers who knew that car well and the track well... but perhaps done on older rubber technology on the older Fiorano track. We at least have some knowledge of what adjustments need to be made.

    Sooo, with that disclaimer in place... who has the list of lap times?? ;)
     
  5. kenny

    kenny Formula Junior

    Nov 9, 2003
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    I am assuming those lap times were recorded when each respective car was introduced... In addition to upgraded tire technology over the years that can make a substantial difference that was mentioned before, other small upgrades like newer rotors, pads and calipers can also make a noticeable difference in lap times with today's superior braking system, like ceramic rotors used in the Porsche GT2..
     
  6. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    Very true. For instance orignally the 355 Challenge (95 model) was tested on street tires and without a wing (no wings until 96). The 95 test showed a 1.26.5 while a few years later Nicoli Larini dove a 1:25.4 on slicks and w/ a wing.

    Here are some posts with lap times from F Chat archives:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/186816.html

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/11462.html

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/322001.html

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/10122.html#POST41276

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/210368.html


    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    1995 F355 Challenge #23
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  7. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Sep 25, 2002
    10,999
    MO
    Ferrari F2002 - 0.58.378
    Ferrari 360 Challenge - 1.22.4
    Ferrari 360 N-GT - 1.18.9
    Ferrari 355 Challenge - 1.26.5
    Ferrari F50 - 1.27
    Ferrari F40 - 1.30
    Ferrari 550 Maranello - 1.32.528
    Ferrari 575M Maranello - 1.31.512


    360 Modena : 1.30
    F40 : 1.30
    F50 : 1.28
    355 F1 : 1.33
    355 : 1.34
    550 M : 1.32.5
    575 M : 1.31.5


    Maserati 4200GT: 1.35
    Ferrari 456GT: 1.35
    Ferrari F512M: 1.35
    Ferrari F355: 1.34
    Ferrari 550M: 1.32.5
    Ferrari 575M (f1): 1.31.5
    Ferrari F40: 1.31.5 (Gerhard Berger!)
    Ferrari F50: 1.28

    Ferrari 333SP (slicks): 1.11.9

    Ferrari F1/94: 1.00.31
    Ferrari F2002: 58.378 (Schumi)


    Ferrari F2002 - 0.58.378
    Ferrari 360 Challenge - 1.22.4
    Ferrari 360 N-GT - 1.18.9
    Ferrari 355 Challenge - 1.26.5
    Ferrari F50 - 1.27
    Ferrari F40 - 1.30
    Ferrari 550 Maranello - 1.32.528
    Ferrari 575M Maranello - 1.31.512

    Enzo: 1'22"30
    F50: 1'27"00
    360 CS: 1'28"00
    F40: 1'29"00
    360 Modena: 1'31"50
    575MM: 1'33"00
    550 Maranello: 1'34"00
    288 GTO: app. 1'37"00
    F512 M: app. 1'37"00
    Testarossa: app. 1'41"00

    V8
    348 tb (1989): 1 min. 37 sec. (ave. 111 km/h) 295hp - 274 km/h - 5 kg/hp

    F355 (1994): 1 min. 34 sec. (ave. 115 km/h) 380 hp - 292 km/h - 3.7
    kg/hp
    355 F1 (1997): 1 min 33 sec. (ave. 116 km/h) 380 hp - 292 km/h - 3.9
    kg/hp
    360 Modena (1999): 1 min.30 sec. (ave. 120 km/h) 400 hp - 297 km/h - 3.5
    kg/hp

    V12
    Testarossa (1984): 1 min. 36 sec. (ave. 112.5 km/h) 390 hp - 290 km/h -
    4.2 kg/hp
    512 tr (1992): 1 min. 35 sec. (ave. 114 km/h) 428 hp - 304 km/h - 3.9
    kg/hp
    F512 M (1995): 1 min. 35 sec. (ave. 114 km/h) 440 hp - 306 km/h - 3.7
    kg/hp
    456 GT (1992): 1 min. 40 sec. ( ave. 108 km/h) 442 hp - 309 km/h - 4.1
    kg/hp
    550 maranello (1997): 1 min.34 sec. (ave. 115 km./h) 485 hp - 312 km/h -
    3.5 kg/hp

    SUPERCARS
    F40 (1987): 1 min. 30 sec. (ave. 120 km/h) 478 hp - 321 km/h - 2.6 kg/hp

    F50 (1995): 1 min. 28 sec. (ave. 123 km/h) 520 hp - 320 km/h - 2.4 kg/hp

    F1 412 t1 1994: 1 min. 00. 31 (ave. 179.074 km/h) Jean Alesi
    F1 310b 1997: 59 sec. Michael Schumacher
    348 Challenge: 1 min. 33 sec.
    355 Challenge: 1 min. 25 sec. Nicola Larini
    F1 412 t1 1994: 1 min.00.31 (179.074 km/h)
    F50: 1 min.28.00 (122.720 km/h)
    F40: 1 min.31.50 (118.032 km/h)
    F355: 1 min.34.50 (114.285 km/h)
    F1 310B 1997: 59 sec. (Schumacher)

    512: 1 min.34"
    550: 1 min.30".8
    348 Challenge: 1 min.33"

    Ferrari F2002 - 0.58.378
    Ferrari 360 Challenge - 1.22.4
    Ferrari 360 N-GT - 1.18.9
    Ferrari 355 Challenge - 1.26.5
    Ferrari F50 - 1.27
    Ferrari F40 - 1.30
    Ferrari 550 Maranello - 1.32.528
    Ferrari 575M Maranello - 1.31.512



    Thats all of the ones there. Now they are all in one post. Sometime I will organize them all.
     
  8. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,379
    This is the kind of question that makes me question the sanity of typical Ferrari owners/drivers.

    Based on my own experience, it has taken me about 1,500 laps of various road racing tracks to come within 4 seconds of what a professional driver could drive my own car on the tires I have on the car. Based on this assessment, and based on the fact that very few Ferrari drivers will put 500 laps on their cars (let alone 1000), I come to the following conclusion:

    Only when you are capable and your car is not does the performance of the car actually matter!
     
  9. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    Wrong conclusion, Mitch. Just because I can show you a bunch of drivers who can post faster times in a Miata than most of the guys here can post in a 360 does NOT mean that most the guys here would be just as fast in a Miata as they would a 360.

    However, I would agree with the point that the best times of the cars driven by great drivers may NOT be indicative of the best times of the same cars driven by average drivers... some cars are much harder to drive 90% than other cars. Thus, it would be interesting to test the cars with an "average" driver... but unfortunately, that's impossible to do with any precision... because average drivers are also inconsistent... and average drivers would improve in the course of doing repeated testing!! (Last car will probably win!)
     
  10. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Here's my merge of all those numbers (thanks for posting the links, Jon). I dropped some inconsistent numbers that had only one source vs. others with many sources. There are a few inconsistencies that had multiple sources and themselves seemed self-consistent... so I just included both times in the list.

    If you know of any times that are missing, post them!

    0'56"33 F2003-GA (2003, MS)
    0'58"38 F2002 (2002, MS)
    0'59"00 F1 310B (1997, MS)
    1'00"31 F1 412T1 (1994, Alesi)
    1'11"90 Ferrari 333SP (slicks)
    1'18"90 360 N-GT
    1'22"30 Enzo (2003)
    1'22"40 360 Challenge
    1'25"40 355 Challenge (1997?, wing, slicks, Nicola Larini)
    1'26"50 355 Challenge (1995, no wing, streets)
    1'27"00 F50
    1'28"00 F50 (1995)
    1'28"00 360 Challenge Stradale
    1'29"60 F40
    1'30"00 F40 (1987)
    1'30"00 360 Modena
    1'31"50 360 Modena
    1'31"50 F40 (Gerhard Berger)
    1'31"51 575M Maranello
    1'32"53 550 Maranello
    1'33"00 348 Challenge
    1'33"00 575M Maranello
    1'33"00 F355 F1 (1997)
    1'34"00 F355 (1994)
    1'34"00 550 Maranello (1997)
    1'35"00 F512M (1995)
    1'35"00 512TR (1992)
    1'35"00 456GT
    1'35"00 Maserati 4200GT
    1'36"00 Testarossa (1984)
    1'37"00 348TB (1989)
    1'37"00 288GTO (?)
    1'37"00 Porsche 959 (?)
    1'40"00 456GT (1992)
     
  11. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    I know this isn't a great time but I just got a chance to do three laps at Fiorano last month. One warm up, one flying, and one cool down lap. It was in the Maserati Tropheo. It was raining hard and the car had rain tires. I couldn't believe the high amount of grip of these racing rains in the wet, I haven't been on racing tires in a while. I managed a 1:42 on my one flying lap.
     
  12. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 17, 2001
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    With slicks on the 355C is only 1 sec faster ? i know Fiorano is small but shouldnt the gap be bigger?
     
  13. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    Peter

    Jon, I'm sure both times would have been done on slicks. The difference is the wing. I'm sure you would know that a slick over a street tire would be worth about 4 seconds a lap.....not just one!
     
  14. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    It's actually 1.5 seconds (typo should have been 1.25.0). The street tire used in the 95 test was a Pirelli PZero C which is similar to an R compound tire. It's no longer produced since the Corsa is out. The 96 used the Challenge spec D3 compound race slick.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  15. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

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    For some reason my post didn't get added here at the bottom but a few threads higher. It wasn't a pure street tire on the 355 w/o the wing if I remember correctly. It was a PZero C which is similar to an R compound street tire in Europe.

    Jon
     
  16. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Yeah, I wondered the same thing. I'd expect 4s at *least* for a 1'20 track, slicks vs. streets. 6s wouldn't surprise me at all (but less than 3 does, let alone just 1).
     
  17. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
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    I would guess both tests were done on slicks...after all we're talking about a car prepared for racing, and that the 1.5sec would be for the wing which, in my experience, would be about right.
     
  18. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Reasonable theory... Jon, do you know for a fact the first test was on streets?
     
  19. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2003
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    I wonder if anyone has laptimes of the 512 BB LM, F40 LM or the F50 GT?
     
  20. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

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    I remember reading somehwere that Ferrari was considering running the C version of the PZero in 1995 in the Challenge series because they wanted to keep the 355 C street legal in the states and EPA/DOT mandated an R compound tire (the C met those reqiurements or at least it did in 95).

    After testing the tire against the real slicks and wanting to market the Challenge series as serious racing they used the slick.

    I can't back it up though with anything in writing or on the internet. I do know that a wing wouldn't subtract nearly 2 seconds (1.5 actually) from the lap time done in 95. Nor would the updates on the newer 355 C make that much difference (oil cooler, different steering box, etc.)

    In any event this whole thread started because of the discussion bewtween a street 360 on R compound being nearly as fast as a 355 C on slicks.

    At Fiorano it's a whopping 6 seconds between the two cars and at a place like Watkins Glen where I run it would be closer to 10 seconds.

    A 355 C will anihlate a street 360 on any kind of rubber. Plain and simple.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  21. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I think the difference of 1-1.5 seconds on that short of a track slicks vs. R compound is reasonable.
     
  22. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
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    May 4, 2001
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    For a 2V inj 308 us-spec car a good time is in the low 1:50's. This was back in 1980. Boy have cars changed since then.
     
  23. Corsa

    Corsa Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    How much do you all expect 15 years of tyre development would make on Fiorano approximately? Max performance, just an estimation.

    Ciao
    Peter
     
  24. moulag

    moulag Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
    71
    Fourth day of testing this week for the Maserati Reparto Corse at the Fiorano circuit, where work continues on the development of the MCC. Test driver Andrea Bertolini completed a total of 56 laps, with a best time of 1’12’’336.
     
  25. Corsa

    Corsa Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    4 10th slower than the 333

    Ciao
    Peter
     

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