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Metal Shavings in Oil -- HELP!

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by LanceTR, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. LanceTR

    LanceTR Rookie

    Nov 24, 2003
    4
    Can anyone help me understand how much metal is ok in oil before you know something catatrophic is about to happenon my 360? Just had engine oil service done and there were shards of metal in each of the folds of the filter, on the drain plug, and in the pan. Car was tracked several times including CA speedway fairly hard over the past year. No sign of drop in oil pressure or unusually high temps. Just seems like a 30k engine shouldn;t have so much metal in it. I'm looking at an engine rebuild to replace bearings at a minimum so any help understanding more would be much appreciated.
     
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  3. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
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    If you have 30k miles on the engine I agree lots of metal isn't good. How long between oil changes; was there no metal last time? Since you're already doing a rebuild whatever is the source is bound to be appearent.

    Ken
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,157
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    Brian Crall
    Year ? Warranty ?

    The oil pan can be removed quite easily in the car and a few bearings pulled for inspection.


    Do that first.
     
  5. LanceTR

    LanceTR Rookie

    Nov 24, 2003
    4
    No metal shavings in oil last time, which was a little over 1 year ago. We replaced the oil with Mobil 1 15/50. It's a 99 so no warranty. I was told the whole engine needed to be pulled to get th e pan off and get to the bearings. I don;t want to have to do a rebuild and don;t know if I need to based on the metal found. It's hard to tell how much it would be in full if all put together plus what's in the lines and the pan. Thanks in advance for any advice.
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant Owner

    Dec 26, 2001
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    IIRC, I thought the 360's had a connecting rod problem in the early models, I thought it was a side clearance problem, a machining error of some sort that caused engine failures.
     
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  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The only rod problems ever related to us was in the early 355's when they first went to titanium.

    The 360 has the easiest to remove oil pan of any Ferrari ever built.

    Pan off, oil pickup off, windage tray off and there's the bearings.

    Simple, 1 hour, including getting the belly pan off.

    Edit. I just looked back through the service bulletins and yes there was one for the 360 rods. They put lube slots on the side faces. They did have some complaints of galling and I have seen it but it was minor.
    Again, a situation easily inspected.
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    So, if there are updated rods for the 360, Im assuming thats a complete tear down because there would be no other patch repair to overcome the error. That should be a recall as far as im concerned.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,157
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    Brian Crall


    A. A recall is for safety related items only.

    B. Every manufacturer updates and improves designs on an on going basis. Engines used to use poured babbit bearings. A poor excuse for a bearing compared to a thinwall bearing. Should all pre thinwall bearing motors be recalled? How about recalling all early versions of Windows software because the new one is better? Start doing that and you have just provided the worlds largest disincentive for improvement and innovation.


    A TSB does not automatically mean that a part or component is faulty. It often means something better is available.
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Take a pill.....other auto manufacturers have non-saftey recalls all the time, I perform them almost daily. A rod design error on a $200K car is unacceptable. You talk like the recall cost would come out of your pocket and if you were on the receiving end of this error you wouldnt just shrug it off.
     
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  13. Dr_ferrari

    Dr_ferrari Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Jim McGee

    Brian is correct, Recalls are for safety related issues.

    Ferrari does take care of mechanical issues through use of Service campaigns (i.e. 360 variator, 430 F1 system upgrade, etc..). If it warrants, ferrari will do a campaign, but at this point I doubt it.

    If you find you do have a problem (and I suggest you do this first before going crazy) contact your local dealer, have them remove the pan as it is an easy endevor, and get a rep from FNA involved in your case, they may extend warranty or help with the cost dependent on the situation.

    best regards and good luck, Jim


    P.S. A mechanical issue can at times warrant a recall if it is safety related (i.e. If a transmission can lock up or engine suddenly fail) possibly causing a safety hazard when driving.
     
  14. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Flush all the oil IMMEDIATELY with a power flush. Maybe you can save the bottom end if you do this without any major repair costs...
     
  15. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    You still have to becareful doin that. You actually shouldnt even bother doin so i reckon. If you dont get out all the debris/shards of metal ect...(which you wont),some could block up an oil gallery in the bottom end/top end whatver and then thats all she wrote. :( Id not start the car,till the sump comes off to inspect the damage/bearings ect....... :D
     
  16. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Yes, I would pull the pan and check too...but my point is that with a power flush one might get lucky and not have to rebuild the bottom end....
     
  17. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    The only problem with that is,how do you know you are lucky?Thats a major risk involved. :D lol The horrible part is that once the engine sump is dropped and they do find a problem,the engine will have to come out and pulled apart anyways to clean out all the other shavings/shards ect.... that has gone through the rest of the engine. You wouldnt dare put new bearings in it and put it back together. Thats asking for trouble! hehe :p
     
  18. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
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    if you have metal shavings as he has described in the bottom of the sump..no amount of flushing is going to put those filings back to wear they came from. Filings and metal in the bottom of an engine is a no no. You may find some at the first oil change (which you normaly do) due to manufacturing debris during machining..but not after 30k.
     
  19. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    Have your local Caterpillar dealer do an oil analysis, if you have any left. It'll give you a detailed breakdown of "foreign body" and metal concentration in the old oil.

    Follow Brian's advice about pulling the pan, if you truly have something coming apart, it will be evident.

    As to Stu's advice, if you've got something coming apart, there's no fix to be had by "flushing" the lubrication system. That's just treating the symptoms...

    Above all, don't panic. These are stout cars.

    -Peter
     
  20. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    There's grounds for concern because this all appeared between oil changes. I strongly second the recommendation to find out what's going on before it gets any worse. Once you know what the problem is, the remedy will most likely be obvious.

    A question, what's the range in size & thickness of the 'shavings'?


    Why is it believed that the metal has gone all thru the engine? The oil filter's there to catch it before it goes anywhere. Won't it just be in the return galleys leading back to the sump from wherever it's coming from, but not redistributed past the filter throughout the engine.
     
  21. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Thats the problem brother. You just dont know where the stuff has ended up in the engine??? You just leave it and see what happens and it could blow up on ya and cost you a total rebuild,$$$ thousands of dollars more,or pull it apart,check it all out,clean it all up,put it back together with new rings/bearings whatever,then you will be right. You will be very suprised where this crap can end up. Not worth the risk IMO :D
     
  22. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    When the engines are new,they have a protective coating that lines the main and big end bearing shells in the engine. Thats why they do the 1st oil change at around 1000-1500kmh. To get rid of the material content that is worn off the initial "start up" and bedding in engine period. The oil basically gets contaminated with bearing material. After the first oil change,its fine. Not after 30K alright! :(
     
  23. LanceTR

    LanceTR Rookie

    Nov 24, 2003
    4
    Thanks for all of your inputs. I'm more comfortable about moving forward. I would love to know more about the rod issue on early 360's as there should be many more incidents of this happening if that's the case, no? I've never heard of any engine related problems before. I will have the pan pulled this week, the bearings inspected, and give updates so that others can learn from my problem. Rebuilding a 30k engine seems ridiculous but I guess I have no choice but to move forward and get the problem solved.
     
  24. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
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    i know it's off topic but Ferrari does also non safety related recalls, i used to work for a dealership and we did both type of recalls safety and non safety related
     
  25. Watry

    Watry Karting

    Aug 8, 2005
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    Berkeley, CA
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    Andrew Watry
    No question you should do an oil analysis to see what the metal is, thus likely where it's coming from. You can find one online, or ask any aircraft shop who they use.

    Andrew Watry
     
  26. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Campaign's, not Recalls at least in North America and it is an important distinction.

    I have several binders filled with both from Ferrari and the documents are always quite clear which it is.
     
  27. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
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    good point about the diference between campaings and recalls,
    thanks
     
  28. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Or send a sample here:

    http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
     

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