Michelin Is The Only Blame

Julio,

The 7 Michelin teams did not join the grid because they were "being nice" to Ferrari and allowing the race to continue as a sanctioned event.

The truth is, each team in Formula One is required by the Concorde Agreement to field cars for each Formula One event on the schedule.

I just found a link a pretty awesome site whch lists some of the public knowlege of the Concorde Agreement: www.concordeagreement.com

See clause 10; Competitor entries.

Simply, they would have been fined if they had not entered the grid. Someone on another board recalled that when Arrows was out of money, they used to do exactly the same as all the michelin teams did yesterday. At that time Arrows couldn't afford to race, but they couldn't afford not to enter a car into the field because they would have been heavily fined. As soon as they completed the out lap, they were back in the garage and packing up to go home, having successfully completed the requirement to field cars in the event.

 

They did the formation lap to enable the race that is for sure. If they had not done it, and the FIA had allowed the race to happen, the FIA would have bent the rules, isn't it?

They did got into the formation lap just to show they were willing to race if the FIA did something to ensure safety. Once they saw that the FIA was not going to install the chicane, they went into the pits, perfetly legal and on their right to protect the safety of their drivers.

So they did follow the rules and did not screw up with Ferrari/Bridgestone at all.

IMO their claim about safety was pretty clear. I do not know you but if somebody tells me that I have some tires that 'may' last only 10 laps if I race, I will simply not use them and retire as they did.

So, FIA was saying, sure, you can get out and have a walk in the track while some others pass you by at 340 km/h lap after lap, and if you are lucky you might even make it to lap 10!!! Oh, sure you can chanage your tires 7 times if you have enough of them, and lose about 140 seconds. But then again your tire may not last 10 laps, maybe they only last 2 and loose a driver or two trying, sorry! But hey we will have agood spectacle, we will see apretty pit crew ballet 98 times in a race!!!

Plain and simple, the FIA proposal was BS!!!

Do you think that is what the people at the Indianapolis wanted to see? A chicane would have given them a race, nothing else have under that circunstances.

The teams did not have the rules on their side, sure, but they had the best proposal. Point would have gone to the Brigestone teams, and the race would have been something to see.

- Julio.

 

I did not intend to say that they were being nice to Ferrari, they were playning by the rules. They could have tried to boicot the race, but that is not what they were there for.

- Julio.

 

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24902

I totally agree with the FIA here. Stop blaming Ferrari please.

 

I think the announcers mentioned that they were doing a formation lap to satisfy their contractual obligation with F1, I don't think it would have broken any rules for the race to have continued without the 7 teams it just means that the FIA would fine the 7 teams and possibly ban them from future GPs.

Well if that is the case (the tires might not have lasted even at slower speeds through turn 13) then they might not have lasted in a chicane. They flew new tires in and the FIA said they would not allow them to use them, but if they did they would probably be fined and stripped of points, why not risk it and pull in use the 'illegal' tires and see what happens. At least it would have forced the FIA to ruin the weekend, by black flagging the cars or just stripping points at the end of the race. That seems like the best scenario to salvage the weekend, for the fans. If the 7 teams were up for a non-championship race with a chicane, why not.

Wrong, the race would have been a non-championship race, the teams did not propose to give the bridgestone teams the points, they wanted a chicane pure and simple. David C. is the only one that has mentioned this scenario and it was his 'idea' of a compromise. None of the official letters say anything about giving the Bridgestone teams points. With a chicane added the qualifing times are meaningless, every team that did not finish in the points would have protested and asked for the race to be voided from the points totals.

 

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135012030&postcount=4410

 

What would have happened if Michelin were supplying the tires to ALL of the teams, and decided the tires were unsafe? No race at all? Everyone go home?

 

NO, everyone would have raced and the FIA would have monitored the speed in turn 13 as they indicated they would this weekend and penalizing any excess. The FIA offered this solution to the Michelin runner yesterday, but they wanted the FIA to Penalize the Bridgestone runners as well which the FIA deemed unfair as the Bridgestone runners came prepared for high speed.

The FIA also outlined a number of other options available to the Michelin teams, including running more slowly in Turn 13, running new tyres and incurring a penalty, or repeatedly changing tyres, subject to valid safety reasons. Michelin decided it was their way or they were not going play.

 

They already penalized themselves.

I never said otherwise.

Please, where did you find the exact source wording of the contracts?

F1 teams don't have contracts to race. They have contracts to show up to the grid and do the formation lap, I believe. That absolves them of their duty...

I'm all for it. I just don't like people saying "sue Michelin" when they don't know jack about the contracts.

Ok? I think fines should occur when contracts are violated, that hasn't been proven yet.

I'd almost be happy for it. Guarantee the GPWC's existence.

Life sucks and then you die. Just because they saw a crappy race/game doesn't mean they should be reimbursed...

F1...run by Bernie & Max....I can see a fair number of people wanting them to have less control...

I find it a disgrace too, I don't think they should be fined though. What they did was entirely in the rules. Hell, they penalized themselves.

 

I don't think you have a very good take on this at all Mr. payne.

 

I'm sure my take won't be a popular one.

What part exactly do you not like?

 

Although I know very little of F1/FIA rules, you can be certain Michelin or its users would not have given Bridgestone/Ferrari any sympathy either in a similar situation. The TV commentator indicated that when MS had a blow out a few races ago, John Todt requested a number of rule amendments but the other teams refused. I believe that a lot of this is political with the major manufacturers flexing there muscles re proposed breakaway.

 

This sort of situation simply cannot be allowed to happen. Michelin is indeed 100% to blame. The FIA did the only thing they could do. Anything else would have been wrong.

The Michelin teams could have chosen to run and either pitted or simply reduced speeds through turn 13.

Michelin knows what is required for F1. The fact is they have failed to provide tires that are technologically capable of dealing with the physics of an F1 car. This failure ruined an event. Millions of people were disappointed. Milllions of dollars were lost. This cannot be allowed.

The FIA I hope is right now in deep talks with Bridgestone and any other tire manufacturer capable of building F1 tires. If the capacity to produce tires from Bridgestone is enough to supply all teams, then Michelin should be banned from F1 immedialty. They have demonstrated that they are simply not technically capable of building tires that are up to the demands of F1 and thus they should not be permitted to participate in F1. It really should be that simple.


Terry

 

The difference is the chicane would had enforced a slower speed at that corner, while without it most likely more than one driver would heated up enough to not slow down and cause a fatal accident. Using the tires without consent from teh FIA could even mean several GPs ban or whaterver the FIA decided.

WRONG, not only DC mentioned it, Pedro de La Rosa did too, as it did Ron Dennis, Alonso...there were more but I have red so much about this today that I can not remember who else mentioned this. But in any case, I really think this was the last offer from the team to the FIA before the race, but the FIA did not want to hear about it.

FIA was on his right not to bend to the teams requests and follow the rules strictly. As the teams had their right, not breaking any rule, to pull out of the race if they have proff that they might be risking the safety of their drivers, and I think they do.

From responsabilities towards the rules I do not think the FIA can really punish the teams, but well, this is a dictatorship, so who knows.

Now from the show point of view the responsable of ruining the weekend is mostly from the FIA showing no means to dialog, nor posible solutions. Their only actitud towards a problem was GO AND RACE, OR ELSE!!!

FIA showed very poor bussines management skills!

- Julio.

 

Please keep your asinine comments about the French to the Off Topic of this Forum, Michelin is a global company and last time I checked did not issue French passports. It's rare that a public company is willing to admit publicly that that have a problem with a product BEFORE they end up in court (ask Ford and... tire maker Firestone)... As for F*cking themselves in the American market I would check the other threads and see how many mainstream tire buyers really know and care about F1 and this fiasco - It may affect them in Europe for a couple of days but next week it will be old news...after all everyone over there knows that Americans can't build proper racetracks

 

Perhaps it does belong in off topic.... but when a nations Govt. takes an ongoing and active anti-American stance on every global issue at every opportunity.... dont expect us Americans to sit back and pretent otherwise. Chirac and his cronies suck as do those french people who support him.



Terry

 

But from the FIA press release the Michelin teams were ok to slow down in the corner as long as they required Bridgestone runners to do the same. Using the tires may have resulted in bans or penalties, but it still draws the line of who is the good guy and leaves the FIA to make the PR mess, now that lies in Michelin's lap.

Well I have read a lot about this and watched the telecast and DC is the only one I have seen that made the statement. That I have seen, but the parties that sent a letter to the FIA was Michelin and I know that no one from that organization made that suggestion. Regardless if the FIA would not hear about it, then good for them. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence of a vote by the teams of which Ferrari is being accused of being the only hold out anyway. The FIA wouldn't hear about it. They should have raced and took extra caution in turn 13 and taken extra stops if needed to insure their safety. We can guess that there would have been a horrific accident, but we can't say for sure that a horrific accident wouldn't have occured anyway at any track at any time. They new of a particular problem and the means to avoid the situation existed (going slower), they opted to sit out and protest like a buch of spoiled brats. Their strong arming did not work and I am glad. It ruined the weekend for many spectators, but so would a non-championship race.

 

can I get an AMEN! spot-on for everything, tifosiron! that track's been there for like 90 years, as has the turn! as you say, the race has been going on for six years there, they should have found this problem, fixed it, and moved on BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN BEGAN.

 

Sorry Steven but adding a chicane wouldn't have made EVERYONE happy for many reasons. EVERYONE did not have inadequate equipment.

Two primary ones are:

1st F1 cars are adjusted to a very fine degree. Areo setups, brake ducting, brake setup, fuel consumption and on and on would have been thrown out of wack with a chicane.

2nd, and overriding all others, there are specific rules and procedures for track design and changes to ensure safety. Who'd be libel when the design of a never tested chicane proved to be dangerous?

Michelin was wrong. They failed to bring adequate tires as they had committed to. They failed to commit resources to testing at Indy. The 2005 tire rules are hugely different than the last time they were at Indy. Turn 13 banking has been a known issue since day 1. Track resurfacing was well known and all the more reason to seriously test prior to the race. Michelin did not. As has been stated over and over....Michelin is to blame.

I've heard first hand that some follks in the stands that got f**ked figured it was just a matter the French hatred of the US in another form!

 

I spent money to be there for the entire weekend's events, and stayed to the end of the "race". It was embarassing to see the people in the stands boo the only folks who came prepared & did their job for the fans.
Michelin has been on race cars at that very track & that very corner for years. How could they not have the data from the last several years to cover that exact issue of speed in Turn 13?
How can anyone put the blame anywhere else but at the feet of the Michelin company & then the teams who demanded a rules change or they wouldn't race?
How likely would they have been to grant a rules change if Ferrari or Bridgestone had had a difficulty? OK, it is speculation, but I don't think they would have cut any slack in that situation.
At least Michael & Rubens put in quick lap times, they didn't just loaf around the course. They should have been applauded instead of booed.
I understand the anger of the fans who paid a lot of money to come from around the country & world & didn't get to see a normal race, but they need to direct the anger to the right recipients.
Unfortunately, this has made a tough situation ( F1 interest here in the US) even worse. I'm really sorry for the damage this shortsightedness has caused the sport & embarassed for the Michelin & Michelin shod teams for this action ( or lack thereof)
Just my .02 worth

 

How about this one:

1) Ultimately everyone is responsible for their own safety. So just as the Minardi's can't brake as late as the Renaults going into a turn, due to inferior brakes (They would probably go off the course if they tried). Then the Michelin guys should have raced, just needed to race within the capabilities of their equipment. So if their equipment won't allow them to go more than 100mph through turn 13, then that's what they need to do.

Before you tell me it will cause a hazard, remember that backmarkers are always a hazard on the race track, stay low and out of the way of the fast guys if you can't keep up. These guys are the best in the world, aren't they?

2) If Bridgestone can produce a tire that's safe for the race, why can't Michelin? I guess if you're on Michelin's then you're going to be slower at this particular race.

Bridgestone didn't tell the FIA to change the course to meet their tires when they have had inferior tires, where does Michelin get off doing it? They thought they could get the FIA to budge since they represent the majority of the runners.

They should have raced, just raced within the limits of their equipment, just as they do all the time. This time the equipment was the tires.

Coulthard's the man, did you hear him coming on the radio just before he turned in the pits to say that if it was his choice he would want to race?

 

AGREED!

 

DC is the only driver with the balls to say anything that showed any remorse or regard to the fans on camera. I will always respect him for that.

 

So what would you have them do? Race anyway? Risk people getting hurt or worse? If the tires really were that unsafe then Michelin did the right thing. Now having said that they did mess up royally and should have been penalised. That's where the organizers of the event come in to make sure that the BS we got instead of a race does not occur. Some thing should have been worked out, rules or not you are screwing people that paid good money to see a race not a 6 car parade. Either allow for a tire stop with no penalty or half the points the michelin teams get for this one race. Instead we got a d$ck swinging contest with neither side wanting to give anything. There is were i find fault with the FIA. If they are not there to solve problems then what good are they?