Michelin Is The Only Blame | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Michelin Is The Only Blame

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by RP, Jun 19, 2005.

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  1. Adrenln328

    Adrenln328 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2003
    346
    Kingston, Wa, USA
    Full Name:
    Byron
    Yes, but the organizers of the event DID indeed come up with a solution (Michelin cars could go slower in turn 13), but it was Michelin & their teams that rejected that. They could have raced under those circumstances and done so safely, but THEY are the ones who refused, not the FIA or Ferrari or the Indianapolis Motor Speedway or Bridgestone.
    The teams with inferior equipment tend to run slower, not get all kinds of dispensations to give them an advantage over the ones who are prepared and are following the rules.
    Something was worked out.
     
  2. robert biscan

    robert biscan F1 Veteran
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    The people who took their time and hard earned money to go and support F1 deserve their money back. The cost of tickets is only a small part of the total cost of the weekend. I was gone to Freeport and just got back and can't believe my eyes.
     
  3. racerdj

    racerdj F1 Veteran
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    Jan 19, 2003
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    I second this opinion!!!
     
  4. exoticalex

    exoticalex Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2004
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    Walnut Creek, Ca
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    Alex L
    Total selfishness within the Michelin teams. They were given the choice to run the race at safe speeds, but they cowardly rejected that- thinking that they deserve some kind of special treatment... for what!?! Michelin did not come prepared, so why should the rules be changed? A chicane could of proved to be disasterous...who knows... but it sure as hell isnt Ferrari's fault. They did NOTHING worng, they simply came prepared for the race.

    This entire situation just pisses me off. Michelin is at fault, but the FIA is not in good standings either. The FIA is responsible for making sure there is a race... PERIOD... and they failed. Michelin failed. The fans get the short end of the stick. Sad, sad, sad
     
  5. cscott

    cscott Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2002
    478
    New Orleans
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    Chris Scott
    Michelin screwed up but the teams are to blame. They are in charge of their results and they make their own choices. Let them blame Michelin behind closed doors but they are in charge of their own team and results.
    Todt, while taking about tire issues this year, has refused to blame Bridgestone as he knows it is a Ferrari issue. The teams could have kept some high ground by refusing to leave the garage, although they should have run at lower speeds at turn 13. I will say, that having the drivers ride around in those old cars waving to the crowd, then driving the warm up lap and quiting, is totaly disgraceful. Had I been one of those drivers and they had told me that is what we were doing, I would have told them to go and F!@# themselves.
     
  6. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
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    Tone Def
    The question was asked what would I have had the Michelin teams do.

    Fair question. But I can't give you an original answer as most of the experts have already stated that the teams should have raced. First, the Michelin teams should have taken the RESPONSIBILIITY (a word apparently foreign to most of the world's population) of the fact that they chose Michelin as their tire supplier, and that this supplier let them down big time. This is not the fault of anyone else, so no one except the Michelin teams should have had to suffer the consequences of such a mistake. In the grown-up world this is called: RESPONSIBILITY, and ACCOUNTALIBILITY. Asking the FIA to add a chicane was a selfish proposed violation of the rules. How childish.

    With this year's really ridiculous F-1 tire rules, which EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO ABIDE BY, a tire can be changed during a pit stop, but if it is not due to a faulty tire, there is some sort of penalty that I can't remember this late at night. Just like the little child that owns the ball, if the Michelin teams couldn't have everyone change the rules so they could win, then they weren't going to play ball. The Hell with the fans, the Hell with the rules, the Hell with their contractual obligations to their sponsors, to the FIA, to F-1.

    So what I would have had those really selfish arrogant ****head teams do is race, change tires every pit stop or just slow down, and suffer the consequences that one of THEIR suppliers is mediocre. Just as if the engine builder kept giving you engines that blew up in every race, you still race. Just like Ferrari had to deal with Bridgestone's bad performance the first half of 2004, and most of 2005. So instead of honoring their responsibility, these pathetic teams and drivers, and mind you, I like Trullie and Fischi, acted like spoiled NBA players and with their actions, and basically told the F-1 fandto go f@*k themselves, so they wouldn't have to finish 6th or worse.

    What a bunch of idiots. Apparently none of them thought that their actions could have a serious long term effect on the sport, not only in the USA, but world wide. Apparently none of them thought! The European press is totally against this action. They have slammed these 7 teams to ridicule BECAUSE THEY F@#^&*G DESERVE TO BE RIDICULED!!!!! Do any of you realize how much $$$ these teams are going to lose to their sponsors?

    What were Ron Dennis and Frank Williams thinking? They obviously went brain dead. These drivere are already brain dead. Webber must be the biggest morn of all. Their action has absolutely no merit, no excuse. And face it, our beloved F-1 drivers are a bunch of over paid morons who have escaped the bad press that NBA and NFL players have received, but on Sunday, they outdid most of those guys (except maybe Ricky Williams).

    So as every F-1 "expert" has stated, they should have raced, changed tires often, driven slower, and suffered the embarrassment of finishing less than 6th, but give the fans a show. Then privately, these 7 ******* teams should have had their own contractual "discussion" with Michelin. Just as Ferrari has had to do quite often with Bridgestone.

    What happened Sunday was an incredible display of "passing the buck". It was not the other teams fault or the fans fault, that Michelin, to quote them, "screwed up".

    If you read world wide press, these 7 teams have tarnished not only F-1, but motorsports in general. Damn, now we are like the NBA/NFL.

    How low can you go?

    I used to be able to look at my friends that did not understand racing with the pride of knowing our players had some honor. Like another F-Chatter already stated, there is always NASCAR.

    Kimi, Fred, JPM, Webber, etc., you are all just overpaid *******s. Thank you very much, you deserve all this bad press. I just hope you lose most of your championship points, and none of you ever becomes World Champion. None of you deserve it.
     
  7. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
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    Dec 1, 2003
    438
    No longer here

    So, in your world Ferrari makes the rules, Ferrari assumes the decision and liability for the chicane, Ferrari overrides the Stewards decisions on penalties, and the FIA exists only to funnel money to Ferrari (after their commissions, of course). Perhaps Ferrari was behind the Michelin tire issues -- maybe a mole in the factory at Clemont-Ferrand?

    What color IS the sky is your world? Are the days 24 hours long? Only two genders? I'm kinda curious....

    Stu, don't ever let the facts of a situation get in the way of your ranting.
     
  8. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

    Oct 17, 2004
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    And how would that even be possible? Depend on the teams not to go too fast? Nice solution, a 10 year old could do better than that.
     
  9. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    racerx: The 7 teams in question, in addition to driving carefully though Turn 13, could have changed tires often. Despite the penalty, they would have fulfilled their obligation to the fan. You seem to forget this. Fortunetely, your opinion is in the extreme minority world-wide.

    Remember, Michelin's report to these teams was there "might " be a problem with the tires. Asking for a rules change the morning of the race because one of your suppliers came unprepared won't ever happen, shouldn't ever happen. These are supposed to be professional companies, professional teams, professional race drivers. I only saw a handful on June 19. The rest were apparently amatuers.

    This must be dealt with severely. Or it will happen again.
     
  10. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    Maybe already posted, but Michelin again is making a big mistake today. This just shows me one of two things... they were negligent to begin with and don't want to prove it by investigating or they are simply a negligent company that doesn't want to learn from its mistakes.

    I will never buy a Michelin tire again in my life.
     
  11. Adrenln328

    Adrenln328 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2003
    346
    Kingston, Wa, USA
    Full Name:
    Byron
    Agree.
    This is the letter I just sent to Michelin.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Since Michelin has been at the USGP for several years, I don't understand how there is suddenly a need to break the rules to favor your failure to bring a safe tire for the race.
    It is a travesty that you even request that the rules be violated to accomodate your failure.
    With the costs of airfare, parking & transportation, food & race ticket, you owe me approximately $950. Pleae remit to the above address.
    I will be very happy to join in a class action lawsuit against the Micheliln company if you do not accept your responsibility instead of blaming others & making excuses.
     
  12. jaturon

    jaturon Formula 3

    Oct 25, 2004
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    In short, Michelin was at fault and unprepared.
     
  13. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

    Oct 30, 2004
    7,821
    Central Texas
    I don't know if this has been mentioned on any other threads - it is food for thought . . . . more grippy?? (as perhaps pulling tires off rims?) direction of the racing line?? (what if you are going the opposite direction?)

    Carol


    Diamond Ground Racing Surface
    The Indianapolis Motor Speedway was resurfaced this winter and the speed and grip of the track come May was a big question mark. Early testing showed a severe lack of grip on the slick new surface. To compensate for this and artificially age the track it was diamond ground.

    Diamond grinding is a process where several (about 40) diamond-toothed saw blades are strung together on an axel and used to cut strips of very thin, evenly spaced and shallow grooves along the track in the direction of the racing line (Lowes Motor Speedway underwent this resurfacing process this past Winter as well, with rave reviews for the resultant new surface). A diamond ground surface looks like a more precise version of the grooved turns that we sometimes see on public roads here in the Northeast to give drivers more traction in snow and ice. This process allows a resurfaced speedway to be super smooth and fast, without the one-to-two year in period for the surface to wear in and grip to returns. While the ground track has proven far more "grippy," that grip takes drivers and engineers towards the envelope and beyond.
     
  14. kaamacat

    kaamacat Formula 3

    Jun 13, 2004
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    BobR
    Can someone educate me here...... You have a team (F1 or whatever), it chooses to use "X" brand of tire. That same team you would assume knows the limitations of all their equipment because thats their sole purpose in life. Test, test, drive, drive, test..... They are darn near rocket scientists on the subject........

    So, Why would it be anyone elses responsibility to run, not-run a race other than that team? (Its like I tell my wife when she comes home and says I only got a 89 on a test, it was hard........ Point here is that someone did get a 100 because they were prepared)


    Bob
     
  15. Sloan83qv

    Sloan83qv F1 Rookie
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    I sent an e-mail on Sunday to Michelin stating that I would never do business with them again and here is the response I just received, the spin is on:

    Thank you for contacting Michelin. We share your disappointment about the 2005 United States Grand Prix, and we hope the following facts will help you
    understand the situation more fully.

    Michelin equipped teams did not participate in the Formula One Grand Prix at Indianapolis on Sunday, June 19, out of concern for driver safety. Michelin equips seven teams (14
    cars) in Formula One. As a result of the race conditions, only three teams (six cars) on non-Michelin tires participated in the race.

    During the weekend, it became obvious that there was a tire issue at the track. Two Toyota cars had rapid deflations on the left rear tire during Friday practice. Michelin technical teams in France and in Greenville, South
    Carolina worked through the weekend to determine the source of the issue and to find a solution before the start of the race.

    Formula One racing is one of the most demanding applications for tires in the world, equipping highly complex and technical vehicles that operate at
    speeds well over 200 mph. Tire regulations for the race are also very strict, severely limiting the tire solutions that can be brought to the race, used by the teams and also limiting tire maker access to the tracks and to tire testing. The circuit at Indianapolis had been resurfaced and
    diamond ground since last year's Grand Prix. Michelin was not allowed on-track testing on the new surface before the race weekend, and therefore had to make many critical assumptions about the new surface, race circuit
    and its interaction with the tires. Bridgestone (through its Firestone brand) participates in the Indianapolis 500, which allowed experience with the new track surface prior to the F1 event.

    Michelin, working with its partner teams, devised several solutions which would have allowed all teams to compete in the race. These solutions included airlifting in replacement tires from Spain which arrived in Indy early Sunday morning. However, FIA regulations would not allow the new tires to be used in the race.

    Nine of the ten competing teams also suggested adding a chicane just before Turn 12-13. A chicane is essentially a lane change feature, or quick turn
    added to the track layout to slow down the field at critical points. While the Speedway was prepared to add the chicane and start the race on time, one
    participating team and the FIA refused to allow the change.

    Given the rejection of all Michelin solutions, the only option was to advise its teams not to participate in the race with the available tires. Michelin regrets that its tires were not suitable for use in racing conditions this weekend, but driver safety is always a priority. Michelin will never change
    its stance on this principle, whether we are talking about tires for competition or any other purpose.

    Michelin is very disappointed about the way the United States Grand Prix turned out at Indianapolis, for the public, the drivers and the teams. It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our
    partner teams, were not adopted. If those proposals had been accepted, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public.

    Michelin would like to thank its seven partner teams for their close collaboration, for having made propositions to the FIA and for having respected our advice on safety issues. Michelin will continue to investigate
    the technical reasons for the tire-related incidents that affected Toyota during Friday's free practice.

    Thanks again for contacting Michelin and for your understanding regarding the race. If you have additional questions, please respond to this email or
    you may call us at 1-800-847-3435 (toll-free) between 8:30AM and 6:00PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday to allow one of our Consumer Relations
    Representatives to assist you.

    Michelin North America
    Consumer Relations Department
     
  16. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

    Oct 30, 2004
    7,821
    Central Texas
    Exactly my point in an earlier post - a new surface -> Michelin did not have the opportunity to test the NEW surface. I would wonder why Michelin was not allowed on-track testing - was it IMS, FIA?? who disallowed testing?? This should be interesting. Sounds more like Michelin got shafted.

    Carol
     
  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    They should have brought two types of tires like instructed to do. A "safe" tire in case the formula they're guessing to be the fastest doesn't work out. That's what happened. Michelin is the root cause, everything else is just a symptom and unfortunate.
     
  18. asianbond

    asianbond Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
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    Sure.

    Imagine this conversation between Bridgestone and Ferrari:

    "hey, did you hear that they resurface the indy track? Let's go do more testing to ensure our tires can handle it, let's not tell the french blokes and disturb their baguette and coffee break."

    The head guy for Michelin in charge of F1 activities should be looking for a new job.
     
  19. dogue

    dogue Formula Junior

    Sep 2, 2001
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    Terry
    There was plenty of press regarding the issues the Indy cars were having with tires and that was 3 weeks ago, at the very least knowing that they would have shown up with a soft and hard compound as originally instructed to do, but instead they show up with only soft compound. \

    Also in the letter they mention that they were not allowed to use the tires they had flown in, not exactly true as the FIA suggested they use them and accept the penalty. Notice how this letter says nothing about the flown in tires being problematic. Paul Stoddard says they tested them at the track and they had the same defect, amazing how Michelin didn't know about the test. I don't think Michelin would write such a detailed account of how they did everything right and then forget to include a test of the new tires. So we now no that not only did Michelin screw up, but they are liars and so is Paul Stoddard.
     
  20. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    So they blame Ferrari and FIA. Nice...
     
  21. bellmd

    bellmd Rookie

    Mar 8, 2005
    10
    Or maybe it was more like this:

    Firestone: "Hey Bridgeston dudes, you got a race at Indy in a few weeks, right?"
    Bridgestone: "yeah, what of it?"
    Firestone: "Well, this new diamond grind is tearing the hell out of our tires, you might want to check into it prior to the USGP"
    Bridgestone: "Send us your data, don't share it with anyone else, and thanks for the heads up!"

    Just a supposition, I have no facts to support that scenario. I agree that the resurfacing was not a secret, but I don't know if the F1 tire manufacturers were given an opportunity to test. If NOT, then couldn't it seem plausible that Bridgestone got a leg up on Michelin through Firestone??
     
  22. bigndude

    bigndude Karting

    Mar 16, 2004
    111
    They where given a chance to test. Bridgestone tested on all their cars. Michielin tested on two. Obviously they didn't think much of it.
     
  23. Sloan83qv

    Sloan83qv F1 Rookie
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    Rob has hit the nail on the head, it is that simple.

    Paul
    Rob and i agree completely (that should be in the next news letter)
     
  24. Prova85

    Prova85 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
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    This should blow a hole in the theory that Bridgestone-Firestone connection gave Bridgestone a leg up on Michelin over data for Indy's new surface.

    So if Firestone used the same spec tire this year as last surely not that much has changed with respect to the surface. This does nothing but put more of the focus on Michelin as to why they have a problem this year.

    From Pitpass.com:

    Firestone used same spec tyres in 2004 and 2005 Indy 500

    22/06/2005

    Although the new track surface at Indianapolis had been diamond-ground, a spokesperson has informed Pitpass that Firestone used the same spec tyres in the recent Indy 500 as it used in the 2004 event.

    Furthermore, the spokesperson informed Pitpass, that during tests it was discovered that wear rates were good and that there were no durability issues. Indeed, the spokesperson was keen to stress that the current surface is a "little less severe".

    Apparently, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway has been diamond-ground since 2003, furthermore the recent resurfacing "did not affect the angle of the banking".

    "This information was freely available before the recent United States Grand Prix," added the spokesperson, who confirmed that it was even reported in a recent edition of the British magazine, Autosport.

    "It is every manufacturer's responsibility to check a circuit's surface and layout," said the spokesperson. The only two tracks where this is a problem are Monaco and Melbourne - both street circuits - in which case the tyre manufacturer must rely (mainly) on data from previous events.
     
  25. Gman

    Gman Formula 3
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    Jul 15, 2003
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    York, PA
    It looks to me that Michelin, in their effort to kept tires as light as they can, just plain blew it when they forgot to take into account the high side load stress of turn 13.

    They have been getting away all year with tires that by end of race are all but ready to fail however still managed to get across the line. This race that stratigy just wasn't going to work. Once they saw results of practice thier only chance to solve this defect was to make changes which would once again make their tire the one to beat.

    I hate to admit this (I was at race and left over $1000 in Indy) I have to agree with FIA on this one.
     

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