mid-corner upshift possible in a F1 transmission? | FerrariChat
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mid-corner upshift possible in a F1 transmission?

Discussion in 'F1' started by frank320, Aug 14, 2006.

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  1. frank320

    frank320 Karting

    Feb 27, 2005
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    Watchung NJ, USA
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    Frank
    #1 frank320, Aug 14, 2006
    So, we were taught not to lift mid-corner, not to shift, constant and gradual throttle, etc during the midst of a turn at speed. But in F1 racing with their state of the art F1 tranmission, you can clearly see, for example, Schumacher up-shifting mid-corner while going flat out exiting the apex. Granted the F1 trans in the F1 cars shift much faster, but they are going at a higher speed and the tires are closer to the limit. Now, i have a stradale and the F1 transmission in race mode shifts in 150ms, slower than the F1 cars, but assuming i am driving the CS and it will be a lot slower than the F1 cars and the tires are not as close to the limit as schumacher in his F1 car, can i get away with flat-out up-shifting mid corner, say from 2-3, 3-4, 4-5? Should i keep traction control on or off? Would the ASR make a difference?

    Thoughts and experience, anyone?

    Thanks,
    Frank
     
  2. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

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    #2 racerx3317, Aug 14, 2006

    I don't know for sure and I've never driven a Ferrari or anything with an F1 type transmission but i would think that just the amount of driveline shock shifting would cause it would be counterproductive. My guess, and it's only a guess, it would unsettle the car too much through the corner. Also i don't see why you would want to. If the gearing is right for the track you wouldn't ever have to upshift through a corner unless it's a soft sweeper. Again, i don't know for sure but that would be my guess. Maybe Jon or a few of the other guys would know better than i would.
     
  3. 505T

    505T Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2004
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    #3 505T, Aug 15, 2006
    Upshifting in a corner with F1 transmission should not unsettle a car too much....I believe it is done in a case where keeping the current gear is redundant and traction for an upcoming straight is more important. I think the reason you were taught not to shift in a corner is because you have to depress the clutch and this will break traction. I dont think its much of an issue with an F1 transmission. Just be ready for some understeer.

    My thoughts, I may be wrong. Please set me straight if I'm wrong.....
     
  4. velocityengineer

    velocityengineer Formula Junior

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    Eric Dahl
    #4 velocityengineer, Aug 15, 2006
    Maybe in slow speed (relative) turns or autoX situations.
    I wouldnt reccomend this in a medium or high speed corner. 150 ms is enough time for the highly loaded rear outside tire to loose grip and make the car twitch and spin (badly if one lets up on the throttle). Traction control and vehicle stability programs will likely save your butt from a nasty spin, if you have it turned on.

    The point is to put the car in the correct gear to begin powering out of the corner as soon as possible. This is still best achieved by getting into the right gear in the braking zone, and in a straight line.

    The traction control is there mainly to save the majority of owners who try to drive the car like a video game.

    The new technologies do things faster and better, but the technique for smooth and fast cornering has not changed.

    Eric
     
  5. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    #5 ProCoach, Aug 15, 2006
    While this truism should be the guiding principle of correct cornering procedure, I can see where in long, fast corners, with the SC and TC on, you would need and want to do this, and probably could without penalty.

    Most of the time you see Shuey and other pros shift up in the corners, it's a "short" shift at the beginning of a complex of corners or a long corner. Short shifting negates the extremes in power delivery.

    -Peter
     
  6. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 tifosi12, Aug 15, 2006
    Street cars including Ferraris unfortunately put the paddle shifters on the steering column so they don't turn with the steering wheel. I believe the idea is to prevent a driver from shifting while turning. Of course in F1 (or CART) the shift paddles are mounted to the steering wheel and turn along with it, so you can always shift as you should be able to.

    I have never driven a F1 with paddle shifters IRL, but have done so virtually where it is not a problem at all, assuming traction control is engaged. And the real guys do it of course as well as it makes a lot of sense depending on the turn and situation.

    I have driven exoctics including the F430 with paddle shifter and had a really hard time shifting in the turns simply because the paddles stay in one place. I still managed to do so, but it was very awkward and another reason why I would never buy a street car with independent paddle shifters. They have to be coupled to the steering wheel or you're better off with a stick.
     
  7. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    #7 parkerfe, Aug 15, 2006
    When I had my BMW e60 M5 at Road Atlanta a few weeks ago I shifted in mid-turn all the time with no problems...but, the BMW SMG paddles move with the steering wheel and I do not know how a Ferrari F1 shifts...
     
  8. dealerjack

    dealerjack Karting
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    #8 dealerjack, Aug 15, 2006
    Do Champ Cars (CART) have paddles? I thought they had a sequential with a stick on the right side of the cockpit, but I could be wrong.
     
  9. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 tifosi12, Aug 15, 2006
    Not totally sure, but I thought they switched from the sequential stick to paddles.
     
  10. frank320

    frank320 Karting

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    #10 frank320, Aug 15, 2006
    Thanks for the response guys.
    I currently track my 996 C2 (6-speed manual) and find myself upshifting prior to the turn-in, trade a higher gear and lower torque(at the wheels) in exchange for being able to get on the gas early and maintain it throughout the entire turn in the same higher gear without shifting or lifting. Here are 2 cases where the ability to do a flat-out upshift mid-corner would be very useful:
    1) Running up the esses at Watkins Glen. This is an uphill(hence, lower gear, higher torque be tremendously useful here), on camber multi-sweeper. I find myself upshifting early prior to turn-1 into 4th so i can stay on constant throttle. Ideally, if my 996 had a paddle shift like my stradale, i would like to take the turn and climb up the esses in 3rd and upshift to 4th, then 5th flat-out all the way to the bus-stop.
    2) Pocono long course running the bowl - Nascar type high speed banked turn. Again, using my 996 as an example, prior to entering the long banked sweeper turn, i upshift into a higher gear, 5th gear so that i can maintain constant throttle throughout the .75 mile on-camber right-hander, 35 degree banked turn without shifting gears. Ideally, i would like to enter in 4th, settle the car, go flat-out in 4th and upshift into 5th halfway around the banked turn and then exit the bowl flat out in 5th at close to the top of the power band. Entering the bowl in 4th forces me to feather the throttle throughout the entire .75 mile banked turn in 4th, only able to upshift into 5th after i exit the bowl.

    With my 6-speed manual trans in my 996, i am left with little choice but to upshift early and trade power and torque for more stability and control throughout the turn. But if the F1 transmission in my stradale can allow me to shift mid-corner flat-out, that be a huge advantage.

    Frank
     
  11. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 tifosi12, Aug 15, 2006
    Regardless of what the racing school teaches you for an ideal world, there are always turns out there that demand a mid turn shift. We were driving the F430 on a predefined route on public roads. And sure enough, there was one narrow turn that goes downhill towards the apex and instantly uphill thereafter that needed a change of gear while accelerating out of it. Eventually I figured out to hold the steering wheel with one hand while the other grabs the paddle shifter. Not ideal, but similar to what I'd do with the conventional stick.

    Makes me wonder whether a tuning shop just couldn't come up with an aftermarket steering wheel with shifter buttons on it. After all the paddle shifters are nothing but two glorified switches on the steering column.
     
  12. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

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    #12 racerx3317, Aug 15, 2006

    No paddles in a champcar.
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 tifosi12, Aug 15, 2006
    Look again:

    http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=10649

    "The design incorporates a number of changes to the existing car, including paddle shifters..."

    PS: I have to say Champ cars is making a nice comeback. I enjoyed watching their Denver GP broadcast and I do like their philosophy. It ain't F1, but to me it is the next best thing.
     
  14. racerx3317

    racerx3317 F1 Veteran

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    #14 racerx3317, Aug 15, 2006

    Hmmmm, i guess they un-banned them. A semi-auto like F1 was banned at one point.
     
  15. DMC

    DMC Formula 3

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    #15 DMC, Aug 15, 2006
    The new ChampCar chassis (Panoz DP01), introduced a couple of weeks ago in San Jose, has paddle shifters. It is currently testing and will be used in 2007. The current Lola chassis has a sequential transmission with shift-without-lift capability for upshifts. It has a shifter on the side and drivers must blip the throttle while downshifting.
     

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