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mid engine corvette qtr panels leaked photo

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by darkkaangel, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I agree with you on most points. But regardles of power to weight, heavier is not better its a step backwards for any "performace" car that has any road course track aspirations, particularily once you start running multiple laps. Yes the Gs is good for a c7, but realisticaly a C6Z06 is simply a better car for the track, and neither is Gt3 levels of real track performance (beyond a car mag lightening lap test)..

    In theory the Me layout should improve the vettes track prowess anf for sure it will be better, however 100bs more weight is not a step forwards. Were talking what 250lbs up on a c6zo6? True the porche 992 went up in weight also, but ferrari and Maclaren are losing weight, to the extent real performance is relevant.

    People bandy about the term "performance" like its means one set of criteria. If Improved 0-60 this c8 clearly has better performance, but there are many measures of performance. I dont think porche ferrari lambo etc are worried about this vette at all, theyre just very different animals.

    Personaly I like the vette as a big cheap lambo aventador aletrnative, you know somehtign out there and ridiculous for the street yet useable. Its what I thought it would be in terms of weight and spec, the exterior is a little nicer than i expected, but frankly the interior concept is disney ridiculous. It will sell well, I dont see it alienating any of the vette faithful, and could well bring in some new clients, myself included, its fresh. But paper numbers aside what we see here aint no ferrari beater let alone a Gt3, its a big heavyish powerful possibly somewhat improved build(its Gm and 60K so ..) "vette" that now happens to have the engine in the middle. Very Cool car for what it is.

    I am hopeful that like the past few generations of vette it will be consistently improved over time and generation. Pity the Me platform is already so heavy though, and I doubt the quad cam motors are lighter, its hard to be lighter than a SBC.

    i said it multiple times in this thread, Gm is designing last decades supercar, big heavy and powerful, pity it could have been so much more, and maybe it will be if they can loose 3-400lbs from some version. .
     
  2. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    you guys have to give up on the light weight dreams. when ever a manufacturer offers light weight, no one buys them. lotus, alfa, etc are hopeless sales. every car gets heavier with each generation due to regulations, features, etc. cannot get away from it. 992 is way bigger and heavier than 997. and i dont believe ferrari or mclaren with their 'dry weights'. until i see a customer car on a scale, i believe a 488 is heavier than 458 and f8 is heavier still.

    otoh, a dellara might be the car you want to see. its under 2000lbs and has a ford turbo 4 with over 400hp. crazy fast and totally basic with stick shift too. under $200k. i estimate about a dozen a yr will sell until they just fade away.

    these gt sports cars like 992, c8, etc are all fantastic. theyre reliable, comfortable, fast, and can handle some track work too. if you want to track a car 20/yr, then get a dedicated car. can take the c8 from home to the track and enjoy both rides
     
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  3. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 Formula 3
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    Mclaren has managed so stay very light. Extraordinarily so, actually.
     
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  4. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    mac does have the carbon tub but they only list dry weights and use lightest optional equip that i dont put much credence in. has anyone put their 720 on a scale? i would love to see the weights. my guess is closer to 3500 lbs.
     
  5. crinoid

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    The question is; is the corvette now an exotic car or not, and why...?
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    We fundementaly disagree not least because you present it as a pure binary choice between a sub 2000lbs or a bloaty 3500lbs plus. Whats clever and revolutionary is building a 2800-3000lbs car(BTW the weight of any number of cars not too long ago) with all the mod cons thats also stiff. Maclren seems to be leading the way, but even traditionaly built caymans are relatively light.

    Theres nothing clever or special or "game changing" about another high beltline car, which weights too much but fakes it with quick shifting paddles a lot of hp and big tires. Thats actualy an old and tired formula. The C6 had all the mod cons and the C6 z06 was 3150 lbs I understand the C5 was even lighter. Note these are not lighteweight cars, just not bloated ones. Progress is in loosing "excess" weight, along with other features.

    With all the advanced tech going into making electric cars light and strong enough to carry that extra 1000+lbs of battery its quite possible to build a 3000lbs or less high powered high performance car for a price. It dosent happen because most people are so impressed by high horsepower numbers and quick 0-60 that manufactuers can just be lazy. Even if you don't go to the track, the price you pay for a heavy sportscar/Gt is in relatively poor ride and compliance, because the springs and shocks needed to controll that mass work against it.

    Progress to me would have been a lighter vette, not lightweight just lighter, evrerything then in terms of suspension brakes etc would work better, ride could be decent and ther e could be enough compliance to have the suspension work on less than great roads. A Stiff tub would be progress too, yet chevies own website says this car is 10% stiffer than a C7, in other words hardly class leading. As soon as we talk performance, and were talking more than 0-60 or some skidpad number, weight and stiffness are two key componanats to real rounded performance, and this car misses here.

    Im not saying ferrari is a paragon of virtue, while still too heavy they are also really tortionaly stiff and getting lighter.

    You dotn need a Cf tub to be light either, by way of comparsion a 4c weights way more than a similar sized aluminum tubbed elise.
     
  7. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Does having an engine in the middle make a car an exotic?
     
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  8. noone1

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    I don't see the weight as a problem. Unless you're going to go with significant composite construction and spartan options, it's never going to be light.

    Huracan, 488, Porsche Turbo... these are not light cars. Even McLarens are more like 3200 lbs in normal trim. A Z07 variant with composite options, lightweight glass, alcantara, etc will probably shave 100-200 pounds just like the exotics do. There isn't a single 2800 lb exotic that I'm aware of anywhere near a reasonable price. Even a Senna weighs more than 2800 pounds. In order to reach weighs that light, you need a stripper car with a small engine. The Senna has like 0 sound deadening and is supposedly a terrible daily driver.

    When it comes to road cars, the amount of power/performance you need simply can't come in a small package, and the power actually offsets the weight penalty in the 3000-3500 pound range, especially when you consider that people want luxury/nice interiors with amenities.

    And 95spider has a point: No one bought the really lightweight cars. They never have enough power and the interiors are garbage. There becomes a point where the light weight cannot compensate for lack of power, and you'd rather just give people comfort + power.
     
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  9. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    This is a key point. People don't want stripped out, noisy cars without AC, doorhandles, and covered in alcantara. People want luxury trim and design. They want sound deadening, they want electric seats, they want good AC, a stereo, heated seats, a lift, etc. They don't want to hear stones hitting the wheel wells and underbody. They don't want to fill up the tank twice a week. They want at least some level of storage.

    Lotus tried forever to sell tin cans with no amenities in the name of lightness, and they pretty much went out of business. No one buys the Alfas even though they are actually really nice looking and sound good. At the end of the day, the market generally wants cars that are going to be 3200+ pounds.
     
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  10. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 Formula 3
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    I’ve seen real world weights on 720S. They weigh around 3100 pounds. Which is part of the reason they’re so accelerative compared to the competition.
     
  11. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    The corvette is not an exotic and I will see plenty of them them everyday next year in Long Island. It's America's sports car and it is following that to a tee: fast, low price, huge depriciation, AC, power windows, cushy seats and 24mpg.

    So, all the folks who tout "this will steal sales from X company" CNBC has an article, The car to challenge Ferrari; Car and Drive has an article, saying put up or go home, in-other-words, let's see how it really is from behind the wheel and making points that it's their first time out of the gate with many things. They also stated GM has no infrastructure to sell cars in Europe and no recognition, so it will have to really be something amazing to make a move there.

    Mid-engine=exotic, what, like a fiero, MR2. What is the most exotic thing about this car, body construction, chassis construction, motor, none, zero.

    I like the cars looks, but wish it did not have loads of C7 DNA in the body. I wish they did a complete clean sheet design, move the needle and get ahead of things instead of just the same formula, but then I remember, It's America's sports car.
     
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  12. Jo Sta7

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    This is an interesting question and in my view, yes. Not entirely sure I can articulate why however without some further contemplation.
     
  13. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 Formula 3
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    I see far more 911’s than Vettes. To me 911’s aren’t exotics but to many they are.
     
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  14. sainthoo

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    Haven’t put my 600LT on scale, but no way it is anywhere near 3500. 720 is closer to 3000 than 3500. They are the class leader and it shows in the handling, acceleration.
     
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  15. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I agree with you, as a pure road car you're right, and I dotn see why this car wont sell great.. But some variants of the vette are not touted as pure road cars, they're touted as trackday specials. Taking the point a little further, in the 2ks on, realisticaly with rare exceptions and occasions no one is really using their sportscars full capacity or anywhere near it on road. To paraphrase you and others, the performance of these cars on road is superflous.. Yet there is a huge market now for so called "track capable" cars, because thats where peopel who buy fast cars to actualy use soem of the performance go to play, and trackdays grow every year.

    No one is saying the vette should weight 2800lbs and be uncomfortable noisy etc. What I and others are saying is progress means a 3000-3200lbs car as much as if not more than being ME. If the me vette is supposed to be an improvement, then losing weight or at least getting back to C6 weight should be the no2 if not no1 goal Thats a noteworthy goal to get to and more or less what a Gt3 weights in some trim, and imo a Gt3 works really well on track for a street car.

    To the extent some variation of a street car is touted as track capable it should be light enough to perform on track all day without melting its tires pads etc, and as you know thats a really tall order for a 3600lbs car. 3600lbs wet is also the starting point if youre looking at the vtet site, once you add all the groovy and sadly mandatory options because of the way the Gm packaging works.

    To me just being Me this car is a marketing ploy, because with all that weight, yes it will add to the performance, but also have its potential blunted by bloat. As I said its an economic aventador, and an aventador is a realy cool car, but no one s really taking one to the track. Same applies to a porche Turbo, its heavy and boated and really doesent work on track compared to the "slower" lighter Gt3.

    Somehwerre between a senna and 3600lbs lays a sweet spot.

    While you say no one bought light cars, porche has sold every Gt3 it could make, and Gt4 doubled cayman sales. Ill go furtehr and say that the legitimacy of the 911 or 992 or whatever its called rests on the Gt3, and the legitimacy of porche rests on the 911, thats how they sell all those restyled audi SUv's.

    To me, the vette needs some light(relaively) truly track capable car. Yes they may sell only 2k per year of this vraianbt, but its really what conveys legtimacy. BTW Zora who is touted as the father of the vette and is now the historic vette Enzo in Gm marketing and vette lore, was all about buyilding a car that had enough goodness baked in to work on track. Thats why the C2 had IRS and a whole host of other options.

    Any way lets see if Gm lets the vette team build it. While theyre starting with what appears to be too heavy a package I recon thers at least 70lbs to loose on the seats alone, maybe another 70lbs in bodywork, who knows how much off the wheels, probably if they focus they can loose 300lbs and still have a civilzed road car. Thats down to F8 territory and maybe a little heavier than a Gt3. If porche can build a 3600lbs turbo and a 3200lbs GT3, maybe vette can dot he same, I
    hope so.

    BTW does this car have coil overs or its still the leaf springs, by extension does it have longer A arms or still relativly short ones?.
     
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    911 was never an exotic. Maybe in the late 70's early 80's the turbo was an exotic simply because only a countach and boxer had the same performance and rawness. Maybe the Gt3 is near exotic. A 911 in most iterations is a quality premium comuter car that is sporty fast and works while saying you made it, the rolex of cars. The vette fits in somewhere below that while having better acceleration(to the extent thats relevant for a road car) for less money.
     
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  17. Dragster

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    I think the weight thing is overblown, as others have stated. The car will be a performer on the track, and livable as a daily driver. If it were easy to make a near 500 hp car under 3200 lbs for $60,000 someone would be doing it--but absolutely no one is. The fact that people are comparing the weight of the C8 with McLarens and Ferraris is downright ridiculous. They don't have to hit a price point that's available to the average person, and as such, can use more expensive, lighter materials. The only other cars in the Vette's price range are the 718s, and while lighter, they're also significantly less powerful. A Cayman S--which starts at nearly $10,000 more than the Corvette--carries about 8.5 lbs per hp, while the C8 carries roughly 7.2 lbs/hp. Having choices is great: there will be some that prefer the smaller dimensions and feel of the Cayman, and others will prefer the power and size of the Corvette. Different strokes.
     
  18. Dragster

    Dragster Formula Junior

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    It has coil overs this time around.
     
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  19. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 Veteran
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    I bet having c8 weigh close to 3000 lbs was discussed in meetings. probably decided by accountants who said it would make each car cost an extra $30k to get rid of 500 lbs and that was that. they don't make cars heavy because they want to. theyre heave because they have to. Evora is 3000lbs, costs $100k, and doesn't sell.
     
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  20. 95spiderman

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    do the macs have full tank gas, ww fluid, floor mats, etc in the car? maybe ac and stereo delete along w $100k cf options, and light weight wheels? I cant believe theyre that light. but that explains why they cost $350k.
     
  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Excellent, not that the ;leaf springs didnt work, but coilover offer so much more future growth and adjustabiliy.
     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Evora is more than 3000lbs and really imo is not a great car. In fact i have no idea what lotus was smokign hwen they thought the evora would be a thing.

    its also not 30k to loose 500lbs. The Camaro 4 z28 lost 300lbs it was till heavy but can be done. If the C8 has an aluminum space frame its in theory staring witht he right bits, I'll also bet the sbc will be the lightest motor. As for cost we have seen witht he c7 z06 and zr1 that there will be vettes going up to 150k in price, whats that going to be a 1000hp car to try hide the bloat.

    If porche can make a traditional material 36000lbs 992 and a 3200lbs one also, can vette? thats the qyestion. Is it a stiff tub? Thats another question.

    BTW this car will sell great in record numbers for a few years becasue the issues I raise are irrelevant for the majority of the corvette fan base. But 3 years from now when the novelty of the engine in the middle wears off, and the vette is seen in a more critical light these issues will matter. Anyway this is version 1.0, what can they build for 100K thats light and fast, that to me all depedns on the underlaying platform, and that ,aybe nedent be heavy with some minor upgrades, aybe they baked that possibility in, engineers are clever like that. Or maybe thye didnt care because they think 1000hp is the answer, even though more hp with serious bloat wasnt the answer with the C7 z06.

    A 1000 hp hybrid is a really thin sliver of a market, we see that with the unfortunate NSX now.

    Anyway im optimistic, its not a binary choice between a no sound deadening rattletrap and a boat. Structral CF can loose lots of weight, light seats(like a Gt350R) Cf wheels(like a Gt350R), maybe light exhaust etc, yeah it costs but for 100k or 120k its doable provided the underlaying concept took this into acount.
     
  23. jimmyb

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    #3048 jimmyb, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
    I think it's hilarious how the C5/C6 Corvettes are NOW held up as some kind of amazing, light weight cars. I would venture everyone espousing these cars has never actually owned one. They were light because they had CHEAP (and light) components. The interior in both (I owned 2 of each) was LAUGHABLE. The seats were the FLIMSIEST thing ever. Slam on the brakes and the unoccupied passenger seat back would flop forward. Ditto, the rest of the interior. The seats alone in a C7 ADDED almost 60 pounds over the C6 seats. Think about that....30 pounds a SEAT heavier. That tells you how pitiful the C6 seats were.

    To hold a Corvette (any Corvette) to the standard of a McLaren or a Ferrari is just silly. Everyone here says Corvette does NOT compete with Ferrari and McLaren and then in the next sentence, dings Corvette for not being as light. Seriously, you can't have it both ways.:rolleyes:

    The Corvette engineers speak often about mass...no doubt they could make the car lighter (by de-contenting the car). And like the other lightweight wonders, they would sell 3 of them.

    Is it lost on anyone that Porsche now makes a GT3 "Touring"? Take a GT3 and add back all the stuff the market DEMANDS.
     
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  24. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    As a cost/weight benchmark, when the S2000 came out 20 years ago, it had a curb weight of about 2,900 pounds and cost $32,000. That's about $47,000 in today's money. Of course, the S2000 doesn't have nearly the HP of the C8 and is two decades behind in technology. As another benchmark, the 1971 Ford Pantera came in at about 3,100 pounds curb weight and about $63,000 in today's dollars. So, it appears that the GM engineers did a very good job of wringing out cost/weight efficiency without upsetting the bean counters too much. A win for everybody.
     
  25. 95spiderman

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    and light weight isn't the be all and end all either. I had a 99 boxster when new that weighed 2700 lbs and it handles like crap. completely loose with poor body control. steering had zero feel. like a 70's buick. and clutch was as heavy as a nascar. it sucked. give me 3500 lbs with great body control, communicative steering, and a light clutch any day.
     

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