mid engine corvette qtr panels leaked photo

Was the C6 z06 not 3150 lbs. I think it can be done today, but not with a heavy supercharged motor.

 

I had that car. It was fun. Clutch was brutally hard to engage first gear though. Harder than a Carrera GT in my opinion. Super high catch point and no anti stall feature.

 

The C6 Z06 was 3,150 pounds. And it got crucified DAILY for lack of creature comforts/refinement (which all add WEIGHT). I don't see anyway that a car company can make a light car that the market (that's us) will buy without use of CF/etc. Everyone begs for the "pure" sports car (Lotus/Alfa 4C/etc) and then no one actually buys them at any sustainable level, business wise.

 

there is a balance between ride and handling which is the hallmark of a luxury car. Caddilacs handle well today at what price. Why must it be either luxo barge from the 80's or bang your fillings out wont steer straight. Whats with the autoboxes hanging onto high gear? Perhaps can squander it previously earned reputation with some insipid motors, caddy does not have the prior cred to do this.None of this is luxury.

Plus the new caddys besides the ct6 are too runt like, the backreats are not comfortable. The interiors still have too much plasticky fake chrome. So yeah they put out some irrelevant "track" benchmark numbers in class and are the cheaper option.

Its not complex, some inpired styling like the caddy concept cars. Have some smooth runnign great sounding powerful motors(benchmark mercedes or hyundai V8s), Tansmissions that respond smoothly though the gears going up and dpown(benchmark the zf 8 speed or mercdes 7 speed) nice classy ineteriors, and a decent ride handling balance(benchmark the big jaguar or s class merc)

And since SUVs are hot, use some of the above design language and all the mechanicals to benchmark the Bentagaya and make a proper luxury suv for 100k. They can also make a smaller luxury suv off a smaller platform, the srx is not it. Good thing about lux SUV's you dotn need styling just great interiors powerful motors and decent ride.

Havign adealerhsip experience that was not cheezball might help too. Although i believe thats being adressed.

Corvettes are easier, they already have the brand cred, they already have the performance cred, they already have design language and people accept a less than refined motor in sports car if it has the power and makes rumbly sounds.

As soem have said, corvette should be brand, thye can do a front and mid engined car concurrently, and the caddy V series should be vette brand cars too. They can even sell them all in sleect chevy dealers. My experience with chevy dealers is they have the volume to actualy offer very competant service, certainly better than over at mercdes, but yeah they dont have a cuppuchino machine and there are some tats about, but then that never hurt Harley, and thats an upscale brand too...

None of this is rocket science, the reason Caddy fluffs it is because Gm is run by MBA's accountants and Hr peopelwho dont actualy buy cars. Caddy was king when design car people like Micthell were in charge/.

I am guessing what saves the vette is the whole program is too small for the truly corporate ladder ambitious at GM to get too involved, so the cpable run it as badge of honour, and they are left alone because it sells makes profit..

 

You clearly haven't driven any of these Cadillacs. They are NOT "numbers" cars...the V -Sports/V-Series do NOT beat you to death, they did not sacrifice ride quality for skid pad numbers. Are the interiors Audi level? No. And everyone dings Cadillac for it. Does Audi handle like a Cadillac? No. And no one dings them for that. WHY is this? So, pick your poison, do want the best handling or the best interior? When the perfect car is built, please let me know and I'll go buy it. Every car has compromises, so it's the buyers call on what's important to him/her. Obviously, the best luxury sports sedan would be an Audi interior/refinement with Cadillac's ride/steering/braking/handling. So why doesn't Cadillac build it? For that matter, why doesn't Audi build it?
I truly wish Cadillac would get their interiors up to Audi/BMW/M-B standards. It would remove THAT excuse....and we would see if all these informed drivers would then buy Cadillacs....I have my doubts as Cadillac's problem is NOT the basic goodness of the car, but rather, the fair/unfair perception of the brand. Cadillac has certainly tried to change their image (they certainly changed the product), and now, you guys are suggesting that the "old" Cadillac image/product (which all the "cool" car guys laughed at) was the right way in the first place. Again, it sucks to be Cadillac.

 

Well said. For years gm caught grief from the car mags about how superior the euro cars driving dynamics were--now gm builds great sport sedans with wonderful steering and brakes and the eurosnobs dont care. Their loss. I cant believe how much better my Cadillac drives than my bmw. Btw, the ride is fine(adjustible,you know)

 

Firstly I am not talking about the V series cars which while excelent in their niche exist in their own limited orbit.

As to the caddilac I tied the most, its was an ATS and frankly besides irrelevant handling it is a pos. Its too small, the turbo 4 is crap, the interior plain sucks and lacks class for want of a better word. The ride sucked, the steering was setup to turn, which meant it didnt track straight well. Yeah it could outskidpad a 3 series, bfd.

As to audi I am surer any cadilac will be running well long after an audi has failed. I am sure any cadillac will be less expensive to keep. However thats relevant at 80k miles and new luxury car buyers dont think about that. What the audi A6 has going for it is a great motor, nice steering and well resolved ride. From what i read the Ct6 also has a well resolved ride, so theres that, its styling is uninspired an the v6 is no great motor..

Besides maybe some v series perforamnce why would I wnat to own a new caddilac. There is no emotional tug in the styling, the motors dont inspire or sound nice, and as you say the ineriors are not fully there, both in terms of materials and also in terms of inspiration, and then there cue which one maybe could look past if the rest was excellent which its not.

Now imagine a caddillac that looks styling wise like some of the show cars. A cadillac with a smooth running v8 you know like lexus or hyundai make but that can make a nice sound when floored,( Maybe the new ohc 4 liter will be that.) A car will a well resolved transmission like mercdes or the zf 8 speed, and thats calibration more than anything, a car with well resolved ride and handling(well maybe the Ct6 has that already)

Whats cadillac today, uninspired styling, so so motors at best(besides v power), sort of not quite there interior materials, unispired inetriors, one model with great ride handling balance, now trying to sell based on electronic gimicks which half the population dislikes, dont really work as advertised, and lets not even get started on cue. Yeah if you get used to it its sort of ok, but frankly it sucks and is symptomatic of the whole problem. A car concetptualized by people who dont actualy drive cars based on clinics or some metric they think is suddenly important(skidpad), a best effort of well qualified engineers and designers who do know what to do suffering under uninspired management and forced to compromise in areas where there should not be such compromise.

Whats needed is inspration, and building great cadillacs. Which does not mean a return to the 70s, or landau roofs. Its does mean good handling and dynamics with well resolved ride, great luxury ineteriors and well they have whole host of concept cars for a new stylign language. They will get nowhere being a cut rate BBA.

There is certainly enough talent at Gm to pull it off, I am also hopeful that if the vette team has been left alone the mid engined car will be fantastic.

The new camaro, its has one insurmountable problem, its looks and feels runty 8/10ths scale, maybe the c5 was dynamicaly inferior but at least it had the scale and presence to be an aspirational muscle car.

 

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Exactly. I would prefer that folks just be honest and say they won't drive a Cadillac because of image. But I'm fairly certain no one is ready to be THAT honest. The post above shows that GM has NO chance with the Euro-centric crowd. The new Camaro lacks "scale", while the C5 (last produced 13 years ago) is not as good a car but has "scale".

 

I really like my last three Cadillacs. Will be trading out the CTS for another next year.

 

Have had great experiences with 3 CTS V Coupes and now an ATS V Coupe.

 

So, are you typing on "Cue" because the above is literally unreadable.....

 

lol

I enjoy and learn from most of Sean's posts, but he'd make a lousy secretary.

I love my AWD 3.6 ATS and think it looks better than anything Audi has to offer. The interior is good enough for me, too.

I will own a V someday.

 

LOL

 

Ill answer a number of critiques from prior posts here.

I remember slaging off the c6 interior and people attacked, now all admit its true.

As for Euro snobs, My daily is a chevy, my first car was chevy and I grew up with cadillacs and have had two vettes, looking forwards to the mid engined one becaiuse when i drive on track I dont like the vette feel of sitting just in front of the rear wheels. BTW Chevy got it right with styling and inetrior with the C7 and sales followed.

One of the reasons why domestics are subpar(in some areas and some models) is because fawning patriots attack any criticism. We should hold our domestic brands to a higher not lower standard. Then they would sell. The euros now have "brand: cred to trade on as subpar new BMWs now do.

I want best in class dynamics at caddy, which is not the same thing as best in class laptimes or skidpad numbers, thats one area where caddy fails. Interesting so many here cant tell the difference between best in class dynamics and paper numbers.

In any event back to the mid engined vette, that and the rumored cayman GT4 Rs (with Gt3 motor) are imo the two most exciting cars comming along.

As to the 3150lbs c6 z06, well they also made a C6 zr1 then for all those who wanted comfort power and paper numbers in their "fast" road car. Everybody who went to the track bought a z06. Other car companies make profit on 2k per year runs of derivative lighweght bespoke motor cars built of a common platform(GT3 GT4), so can vette, especialy if the Na motor also goes into a z28.

As for the scale of a camaro, a 2 seater sportscar has one scale, the c5 was dynamicaly great was built like tupperware and its styling frankly sucked unless you like fat asses and a front and rear that were disjointed. Meanwhile the c7 which is fundementaly an evolved c5(and a bit longer) sells, so if you get the styling, build quality and dynamics right it sells.

The new Camaro is supposed to be a 2+2 muscle car, its runty and does not sell as well as the previous camaro. Gm got the scale wrong for this type of car, even though it drives great.

 

OK, I'll bite. Explain driving "dynamics". You seem to be hung up on the current Caddy's being "numbers" cars, while literally EVERY review from ANY car publication disagrees with you (as do I).

 

Actulay pretty much every review puts caddy despite its superlative/winning track/skidpad/accleration numbers at or near the bottom of the pack. Then the letters roll in, how come the caddy outperformed BMw merc etc and was at the bottom. There are many reasons for this, ride dynamics being but one.

So lets start with vehicle dynamics. Were talking about road cars now, not track day cars, because most people buy road cars, and drive on potholes etc. There are two ways to make a car handle, the english way and the german way.

The english way as seen in lotus or jaguar is to let the suspension actualy do the work, ie move and have compliance, while still controlling the body motions. Its done with springs on the softer side and really great shocks(not stiff, more longer stroke with great valving minimal stiction etc).

Ride a stock lotus elise and any older jaguar(even the ford ones) and youll see there is excellent ride compliance and bump absorbtion(no intial thump), the suspension is working, there is a little bit of body lean on hard corners, but everything is still precise, there is no lexus barge like slop in transitions from l to r or huge nose dive on braking etc because the shocks are doing their job and there is harmony between the shocks and the springs coupled with good acurate steering.

Then there is the german method. Where you take a "normal" ie e class sedan and put really stiff springs on it with shocks to match. The ride is brutal but hey that minimized suspesion compliance turns in great "track" numbers and on billard smooth german roads it works. Now you can try fake around this with adjustable shocks which can soften the blow from the hard springs but are a compromise because youre still running really stiff springs and go too soft with shock settings and its pogo stick time. Nor for that matter can running softrer springs just be dialed out with adjustable shocks that get really stiff.

Shocks and springs each do their own job, you can get one to fake parts of the other but not fully. So for a given set of springs on a certain cars suspension there is a fairly narrow shock dynamic. Adjusatable shocks can within a narrow range widen the bandwith they are not a panacea. There is also a reason why Ohlns shocks can cost 10k. Because they construction and componants allow them within a given stiffness to dynamicaly respond and perform better. To this day suspension tuning is an art more than a science. Go after one set of objective measures say lateral Gs with out balancing everything and its a stiff riding mess.

BTW range rover is a serial offender, their stiff springs to control the body and shocks give them a ride its brittle and atrocious. One of the worst cars I drove was the new rolls dawn. It handles big bumps fine, but a manhole cover sent a serious thump through the whole thing.

The best riding medium sized crossover I have experienced is a prior gen chevy
equinox, because it allows the suspension to work and the shocks springs are in harmony, it also stll handles well for such a vehicle. The audi Q5 handles better but is serialy uncomfortable in ride absorbtion. Of the new small crossovers the mercdes Glc has well sorted suspension, ride is good hadling great.

A stock mercdes c class has great dynamics and absorbtion, the A class amg its like wtf, might as well have no suspension. yeah it handles liek a go kart(which has no suspension), but its brutal. A porche Gt3 handles better and is far less brutal, because they worked out the finer points and probably have better componants. BTW depending on how wound, metal used etc springs of same stiffness can have very different responses.

A good suspension engineer is an artist who can develop a fully resolved suspesion that can within the performance parametrs desired give both good bump absorbtion and great handling. Seems like at caddy maybe they can dial back the skipad numbers 5% and have a far more resolved better riding and handling(for road) car. From what I read thats been done on the CT6.

Now lets get on to steering. All of the 3 recent caddys I have driven(no v series) have really sharp turn in just off center, too sharp, so they dont really like to track straight nicely, and slightly off center theyre diving for the guard rail.They also feel like once turned in you have to almost back off wheel as they keep going in sharper and sharper. Maybe thats as simple as too much negative camber or toe out, a setup to win some "objective" comparo with a foreign car but driving dynamics suffer for any normal road driver.

Caddy has gotten steering accuracy right though, as does the new camaro.

New audis seem to steer great all around as does the new KIA I rented..


BTW the ride on the last 3 series Bmw was atrocious, and bmw steerings of late feel like theyre not connected at all, but BMW has a reputation they can sell on while they squander it. People just buy the propellor and they probbaly have 5-10 years of reputation to loose before the mass figure out its not so great.

Try a normal c class or e class for good ride absorbtion and handlign balance, they get it right, theyre precise not sloppy like lexus or 70s caddys, but have good absorbtion. Its a compromsie, but these cars dont sell on nurbering laptimes.

Thats really the point. Caddy is trying to beat some "objective: test instead of makign a complete fully resolved car. Maybe that works on some roads but not others.a

Suspension dynamics, a lotus eilse has really soft good springs, and great well balanced shocks. The ride is sublime So you can go really fast round a corner and it will absorb a mid corner bump while still controlling body motions, as opposed to an amg a class or Alafa 4c which are just all stiff and will bounce you off the road on the same bump or track curb.

The sad part is the new caddys have a stiff body and really nice suspension pieces, so can be truly great because thats the foundation you need, a non bendy body and good pieces.

Next we have transmissions and engines.

 

Cadillac CTS Reviews - Cadillac CTS Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

They basically loved the dynamics:

"The V-Sport’s steering enhances the rest of the car’s dynamics with its positive feedback and communicative nature. It tells you everything you need to know—no more, no less—about the texture of the road surface. The meaty, leather-wrapped steering wheel feels good in your hands, and the rack is accurate and weighty, whether you select the Tour or Sport driving mode (there’s also a Track mode that partially deactivates the stability control and a Snow/Ice mode for more treacherous conditions)."

 

For the Nth time, I am not talkign about the v series which operate int heir own niche and probably shoudl be part of a corvette brand. The post above s uses the word dynamics to refer to steering, no reference to chassis dynamics. I am sure cadillac steering work great on track, on real roads as I said, they are accurate but sub optimal for the reasons I laid out in the post above.

Also C&D R&T to name two are basicaly shill advertorials for car companies. There is no way there is a bad review of an advertiser unless the car is truly horrid. You need to read between the lines.

Whenver buying car, test drive similar models from different manufactuers on roads you use, you will be surprised which ones you like.

Bottom line, caddy has had billions spent on developing caddilac specisfuic cars and theyre not selling in incresing numbers, GMC sells warmed over chevies and now sells more vehicles than caddy.

Brand snobbery has not held the escalade back has it. The problem is one of product execution and conceptualization. They are simply not doing it right. There are lots of great componants there, not hard to put right. Styling, vehicle dynamics(ride handling and steering setup), powertrains. Sad part is the engineernin and styling talent clearly exists at GM.

 

If the pictures some one text me are true.....The new vette will be as outstanding as the new McLaren 720s.
The sales numbers for caddy are off between 14 to 60 percent depending which model in the last couple of months.
Here is the problems, THEY HAVE NO STONES TO BUILD A TRULY CREATIVE CAR.
All the new teams are team approved, meaning 25 people have to agree or it doesn't move on.
This has killed so many other American car makers.
The young talent cant add their two cents or they have no job. The old timers are OLD DETROIT, they just don't get it.
And so, you end up with what you have, ehhh.
IMHO if the vette comes out like Ive seen, its a home run.
I wish they luck, The Ceil was it, but....

 

Yep, that probably sums it all up.
Cars at least luxury and sports cars are things of passion. A camel is a horse designed by a comitee.

 

They (GM) will never admit it, but it sure seems unlikely that they don't. Earlier this year, 2 spy guys just happen across a ZR1 prototype in the mountains of Colorado...."Hey George, let's see if we can find a ZR1 prototype to photograph...Ok Frank, hmmmm.....let's fly to the Rockies and see if we find one there"
This is a awfully large country to just LUCK across a ZR1 testing. It's one thing to see it in Detroit.

 

Embracing the past would be a death sentence for Cadillac.

Now can we get back on topic?

 

I am going to make acaddy thread, because this sia very worthwhile discussion. Suffice it to say, pulling to good parts of the past and reinventing in am odern idiom is far from a death sentance, as witnessed by Bently and Rolls to name 2.

 

My hope for the mid engined vette.
The vette team is certainly more than capable, hopefully the powers that be at GM realizew not to mess with a group that actualy knows its game. The sucess of the c7 was the sucess of letting them do their thing and made a good car with a good interior.

As we can see when inspired talented peopel are left to dot heir job we can get a great result. The danger sometimes is that things get over done.

In any event porche off one 991 platform has made various falvors of 911. Vette has done similar things with the c6 and c7. So we may well expect to see a more base comfortable midi, a superfast zr1 style midi, and gt3 track monster style midi and maybe even a purist gt4 drivers style midi.

Personaly seeing what the vette team has acomplished with essential c5 architecture on the c7 I think this can be the most exciting and exceptional new car to come along, period. Maybe the foist year ownt be the best, but the team will probably have many years to hone the platform.

Somewhere along the line something below 3k lbs dohc 600hpish motor, great brakes and steering, yes please.

There are two primary measure I have on a sportscar these days. Is it fun to drive at road attainable speeds, or bland like a modern ferrari. And can it sustain multiple laps at full pace on track.

Is the motor inspired and a rever, like a ferrai/Gt3.

Then stylign interior well built etc.

No reason why the vette should not have it all, with different emphasis depending on iteration.

the vette team knows the sports car and Gt game.

 

Mid Engine Corvette
Too bad they will not make the C8 fit the size - length and width especially of a 288 GTO but with a bit more headroom!