Mike Sheehan - The Ferrari Curmudgeon

Perhaps there's more competition to sell the newer stuff, creating a profit motive to sell up market and write articles accordingly. All of us (me included) ooohh and ahhh over a 250 GTO or a 250 SWB, but the fact of the matter is that if Ferrari could have built 5000 of them they would have. But they didn't have the supply chain, the capacity and the distribution channels to support these build figures. Every Ferrari is special to the owner and to people whom appreciate them. I like reading articles about Ferraris but I always consider the motivation of the source.

 

I also have heard of him but dont care about his opinion. i also think some of you "Ferrari experts" are on drugs with these repair prices on these cars. i bought a 40k mile 328 from California, did the major and 4 tires for less than $3000.00 parts and labor, and have been driving the car. Is it a perfect 328? no, do i care? NO.

I am NOT INTERESTED in these old "investment cars" I want cars to drive.

One thing about car gatherings I have noticed, some ( not all) of the wine and cheese crowd really seem unhappy, and do not seem to drive and enjoy the "car"" they have. I really wonder why some of these guy own the old cars and go to shows.


Drive the car.



paint may be old, so what, it aint a new car. leather has some wear, so what its 24 years old. Everything works, we upgraded the a/c, which i never cared about in the past, but it does work well on the 328 series, compared to the older 308s, and all the 911's I have had.


i do agree on one thing: buying any of the older non 12 cylinder F cars and putting a ton of money in them to make them better than new will leave you upside down. better to make the car a reliable driver and just enjoy the ride.

I have no idea why the 206/246 is worth so much. they are pretty, but do nothing for me at all. the older cars i read about in books are a pleasure to see at shows. but I do not lust to buy them, and do in fact spend my money on other things ( Firearms and guitars) more so than cars anyway.

great thread, and a wonderful read. Would love to have a bb512i, but they have really spiked in price.

i plan to stick with 3x8's awhile longer, as the prices go up i will just move on to better guns and guitars as I age.

They dont burn gasoline, dont take up much room in my safes, and are way easier to sell .

 

Pretty cars are sometimes more desirable than ugly cars.

Rarity, history and beauty are what makes old cars desirable.

Surely, when a Civic can out run most of these old cars, you don't think 30-50 year old performance is why most are coveted?

 

I agree with Uro on this one.

You actually can drive the older cars, and they offer an aesthetic and sensory high that you can't get in new cars. I would not consider spending anything close to $300K on a 599, which is a collection of soon-to-be-outdated technology wrapped in plastic and airbags. But a Daytona coupe is a "forever" car and worth all the money.

 

I'd imagine that in 40 years you will be able to make that exact statement when the "older cars" refer to the 599.

 

I predict that 599s, GTRs, Panameras and most modern cars will be recycled due to their electronics within 40 years. They simply won't be worth refurbishing.

The '50s/'60s/early '70s cars are infinitely rebuildable, whereas technology-based cars are like yesterday's iPods.

 

agree with both of you, and yes, again they ARE stunning, but the prices, compared with WHAT ELSE that money can buy you is what confuses me. Lovely cars, but really expensive.

Guess i dont see the draw. 328's, 308's are fun, not at all in the same looks league as a 206/246, but i could never justify spending that Dino money " on a car ".

Aircraft, maybe, but not any car.

Just me i guess.

mid 1970's to late 80's junk cars seem to be the ones I like, excusing the Maserati Grantursimo which is ( to me) very beautiful. little more depreciation and ill be in a 2008 Maserati.



ps, I think 58-59 Les Pauls are overrated / overvalued too.

 

The 308/328 are great values currently -- not much money, good to drive, beautiful to look at, rare to see on the road. No doubt about it.

To some extent it probably depends on your threshold for the value of a car you would actually drive. Malcolm B in San Diego has probably put more miles on his 275 GTB to date than I did on my 328.

It also probably depends on whether all the "intangibles" add up for the individual. There's no way you're going to get $200K of driving utility out of a 246 GTS, but I understand what Ralph Lauren is saying when he claims that his cars are his art collection.

 

How do you know when a particular model or series is "fully depreciated"?

 

When the prices start going back up

 

Exactly what he said. I would add that a Daytona is a Ferrari, whereas a 599 is a Fiat-Ferrari. That's important.

The fallacy that older cars are not driven is very tiresome, completely erroneous, and a sure sign of ignorance. I put more miles on my 330 GTC than most drivers of moderns - about 20K kilometers per year, including three rallyes. And I am not the only one.

Sheehan's article is IMO fair. I understand many people don't like his conclusions; that doesn't mean they are not valid. Fiat-Ferraris are beautiful and highly enjoyable; they are also mass produced by an industrial conglomerate, and with very few exceptions they will never be of any value as an investment.

That's cool. Just stop predicting that TR prices will go up in five, ten, or thirty years, or that the 308 will one day reach Dino levels: It will never happen. That's Sheehan's simple point.

 

Just to be clear: I think you're refering to the Montezemolo era Ferraris, not the Fiat era. Edit: and I disagree with your last sentence. Not wishful thinking - I didn't buy my 308 as an investment - but I don't see any difference between the possible fate of the (early) 308 and that of the Boxer and the Dino. They are very similar cars.

 

Both, with a few exceptions.

Early 308's and BB's might well belong in that category, particularly when compared to a Dino, which is also a Fiat-Ferrari.

I didn't buy my cars as investments either; Ferraris are meant to be driven (even the 212, which covers about 2500 kilometers a year). I was just commenting on the Sheehan article and the reactions it provoked.

 

I feel that the 308 had far more fans due to the use in the media than the Dino. I see no reason that the 308 won't surpass Dino values in the next 10-20 years, as soon as my generation gets our kids out of college. (at least that is how I see it in the states, your values may vary depending on location )

 

I pretty much agree with Dr Who.

Plus, I see Boxers (especially), 308s, and 328s already starting to inch up in price.

I think that $45,000 for a nice 308 in 2020 is more realistic than $60,000 though. But even that would represent about a 50% increase. Once the price begins to rise, so does demand. Strange - but true. It is a lot easier to sell yourself - and your wife - on buying a used Ferrari when you can see that the price is going up.

I clearly remember when Lussos hit bottom (they were going begging for $6,000) in the late 1960s, and 275GTBs and Daytonas hit bottom in the late 1970s. No one wanted one. Once the prices began to rise in the early 1980s, it started becoming very hard to find one for sale.

 

A 308 will NEVER be worth as much as a Dino - that I will bet on.

 

Not sure why you're interested in ANY Ferraris at all?? 328 is a great car- but for sheer DRIVING wouldn't a 2 year old Vette blow it's doors off?? Wouldn't half of the cars in any high School parking lot hit 60 MPH Faster?? It's special because it is a handbuilt piece of Italian Artistry.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course- You always seem SHOCKED that people love Ferraris, and will spend money for pristine examples, and pay BIG money to keep their cars in perfect condition...

For me I want the car to be as perfect as I can get it- This isn't a "used car'- it's a special vehicle and I personally can't live with worn leather and faded paint and mismatched parts- I drive my cars and put serious miles on them- but I appreciate the artistry used to build them,

With Guitars I'm the opposite- I love frankenstein Strats and teles- stripped or refinished bodies don't bother me- For me as long as the wood and pickups are old... it's still magic.

 

Why not? There was a time they were worth twice what a Dino was. Both are iconic vehicles seperated by a decade. The Dino is an icon of the the start of its run, the last 60's; while the 308 is the icon of the end of its run, the early 80's, with the gt4 representing the lost 70's. The Dino values did not take off until the kids of that era reached collector age, and the same will likly happen to the 308. Only the higher production numbers of the 308 will keep its value from going to high, because those born from 1965 to 1980 were raised with it as the symbol of what a Ferrari is, be it from Magnum P.I., Family Vacation, or Cannonball Run; or from the successful doctor or businessman up the street. The late Baby Boomer folks born 1950 to 1965 have pushed the Dino's values to where they are, and now the early Generation X will start to push the 308's up again as we hit our 40+ years.

 

Change that to 30 years and I'll agree.

Seems the magic number for cars is 40 years... That's why 72 and earlier Ferraris- even cars nobody really likes are $100K and up, and why Sheehan has suddenly seen the light and is pimping them to buyers.

An early 80s 308 has to get to at least the mid 2020's to START to be viewed as vintage... and since so many more of these were made than Daytonas and BBs, I think you're looking at 2030 (The Future!!) or later. In the meantime- great cars to own and drive with NO chance of depreciation.

 

All you need is to have the people that want them, "Generation X", to reach the age where collecting childhood icons is not competeing with their childrens' college fund.

 

But the X'ers seem to be more productive than the Boomers.... at least these days they do...

 

You are spot on as usual